Limiting Beliefs

i wonder sometimes, the more i talk to people, and learn

on the surface a lot of people come across like they want this lavish party party lifestyle


but when you ask them what they want and they think about it, most people just want some sort of peace and settlement

The Simplifier wrote:

I've also not been the life of the party literally, but being the life of your own mind party is maybe what I meant loll. To really feel at east and choose to look at any project you're given with joy and ease.

Be the life of your own mind party! Love that!

Kazoo wrote:In your example of the person who wants to be wealthy, you say that their individual belief that they are wealthy can facilitate this "through this common mind, and the entire energy of the universe will start moving this way" but in other instances, the actor or the mentally ill person this doesn't happen?

Yes. In the wealthy example it's a deliberate act of creation, in which all levels of the mind including the conscious, individual mind orchestrate together, and I therefore assume that three conditions are met: 1) Intention, 2) Belief, and 3) Imagination. The "deluded" can't be a creator; his mind is rather malfunctioning and in total mess. He's just insane. The actor neither intends nor even believes he can be, say, Prince Hamlet or King Lear. But he or she who wants to be wealthy can have the three conditions met.

So if I am understanding this correctly, (and I may not be...) there is of course not only the individual belief system in play but also a collective belief system at work?

Yes of course, like it or not. Some even deny "freewill" altogether because of that. The good news is, this "collective" mind or belief system is "yours" too, because the entire world is "in" you. (Remember Indra's Net?) You just "identify" with the individual so you end up limited by the individual—to the point that even your thoughts may not be really yours. They just pop up in your mind, don't they? But if you identified with the universal mind, or could somehow tap into it, you'd then inevitably have access to the collective systems and templates of creation. (or so I believe).

The mentally ill person doesn't manifest what they believe because the rest of the collective identifies that person as mentally ill, that person's individual beliefs are not real to the collective so the collective belief system overrides the individual?
In the example of the actor, we all see the person as an actor as well.  So it's not only the actor's belief that he is simply "getting into a role" but our collective belief as well, that he's just an actor, not his character and what he's presenting on film is not reality that keeps him from attracting what he acts out?

Forget about our collective "conscious" beliefs. Once you read or hear "collective," stick to it "unconscious" right away. Even scientifically, Jung in a very close model called it the "Collective Unconscious," which is even deeper and more "unconscious" than Freud's "Personal Unconscious." So at least in these posts collective = unconscious, always. In all cases, let's remember, the "conscious" mind, although crucial in the process of creation, is but a very thin layer of the mind, as you already know of course.

Rodan wrote:Like you say, Lotus, it's not really materialization, but, a projection, into our physical reality. If it can be projected, and, the mind holds the belief that it is real, wouldn't the projection hold?  That is, the results are permanent.  That which you wanted, believed, and, finally received ( manifested ).  It may start off as an illusion, a projection, but, when the mind accepts the projection as " physical reality ", does this not become physical reality?  Even to the point all around experience it, too?

It's not a projection that turns into a "physical reality." Rather, physical reality IS a projection, itself a projection, LITERALLY not figuratively. You are in a 3D movie here, again LITERALLY. The ONLY difference between a mere hallucination in your mind and, say, Mount Everest is this: the hallucination in your mind is "transmitted" or "projected" from only your individual mind; Mount Everest, on the other hand, from the main projector of reality, the deeper level of the mind that I referred to earlier as the "template" of creation.

Believe, visualize, affirm, act as if, feel as if, etc, all are only our tools to move our desires from the "individual" mind and instead engrave them on that template mind, from which they can be "projected" as common or mass reality. However, if you could tap into that deeper level or had direct access to the template, that would be a totally different story. You wouldn't need to visualize daily or first assume the feeling or do any of that. You'd just think things into being. You'd even only intend them, and your mere intention would instantly manifest as common reality for all to witness and experience. In other words, your individual mind, in a sense, would be itself the universal mind—the template mind. That was Jesus mind, simply—a mind in which "Lazarus is asleep" doesn't express a personal belief or desire or daydream, but a re-construction of reality itself.  

Therefore, to answer your question, yes of course the projection will "hold" and endure, either way, because the transmission either way doesn't come from you or your individual mind, but from the deeper mind of all and of reality in general. (Remember, we are ourselves, our very bodies, are but projections too, from the same deeper level of mind, or template).

How about some examples? Please read on.

...........................

I have hundreds of examples but let's at least read from one of the most credible sources, "Modern Miracles," in which the author Dr. E. Haraldsson (Psychology Professor at the University of Iceland) discusses the case of Sai Baba and narrates in detail his personal, firsthand experience with this Indian saint:

We told him we were researchers of psychic phenomena and had heard many accounts of miracles occurring in his presence. As we were talking, he again made with his right hand the typical small, circular movements that last for two or three seconds, and lo!—there was a large, shiny golden ring in his palm. He put it on Dr. Osis’ ring finger and said it was for him. It fitted.


His materialization of a "double rudraksha" was even more interesting. They had a discussion in which Sai Baba used the "double rudraksha" as an example. This is a rare malformation of the seed of a rudraksha plant. Haraldsson didn't understand what "double rudraksha" was, and the translator between the two men was in trouble. But Haraldsson insisted as to know what exactly was meant by the double rudraksha. Sai Baba then:

Sai Baba closed his fist and waved his hand for a second or two. As he opened it, he turned to me and said: "This is it." In his palm was an acorn-like object about three centimeters at its widest point, brownish, and with a fine texture like an apricot stone. ... It had the particular freshness and cleanness that I later observed to be characteristic of the objects he produces.


After Haraldsson and Dr. Osis handled the object, Sai Baba took it back for a moment, saying that he wanted to give Haraldsson a present:

He enclosed the rudraksha in both his hands, blew on it, and opened his hands towards me. In his palm we saw a beautiful piece. The double rudraksha was now covered, on the top and on the bottom, by two tiny, oval-shaped, golden shields.


From these two examples of materialization (out of literally thousands Sai Baba performed during his life) we can notice two things: First, the man didn't "believe" or "relax and visualize" or do any of that. He didn't even think much about it. He just closed his hand and then opened it with what he intended to materialize. (In several cases he didn't even close his hands. In his materialization of "rice" for example, he'd just move around among thousands of people all sitting on the ground, and his two hands would just "pour" rice, a "flow" of rice, as if pouring from his sleeves). Second, the objects he materialized were of course real and enduring. Sai Baba didn't have to "hold" them mentally. He may have rather forgotten all about them. Yet they endured as part of our physical, common reality. (In fact Dr. Haraldsson later took the double rudraksha to several shops and expert botanists to examine it; they all told him it was a very rare thing to find—so rare they offered to buy it from him).


I think I wrote too much but let me finally add one more example from my own experience. That was an adept magician. An old lady came over to his place with her daughter asking for his help in some issue. It was their first meeting ever; they never met or knew each other before. The man welcomed them warmly and invited them in where a couple other guests were present. The old lady introduced herself, but when she started to talk about the reason of her visit he told her, "Let's first get some good coffee and then talk." The old lady said, "That would be nice, thank you." He then asked her, "Would you like it in your own cups, or mine?"

The old lady was taken aback for a moment, then with a hesitant smile and a look half scared and half challenging said, "In MY cups, if you please."

The man was leisurely setting and by his side was a small wooden cupboard. He then knocked on this cupboard. He didn't even move. He was still as leisurely setting, but just stretched his arm and knocked. Almost immediately after he did, a "sound" was heard inside the cupboard—as if something was "thrown" into it. The man then finally rose, opened the cupboard, brought out a couple of old cups and handed them to the lady—now stunned and speechless at the sight of the cups. "You mean these?"

Long story short, yes they were her own cups, which she left in her house a couple of hours ago or so. Although this is not really a case of materialization, it shows us how illusory "matter" and generally the time-space boundaries could be. And again, there was no preparation, relaxation, visualization or any of such techniques and dearly-held recommendations.* The man just "wanted" the lady's cups in his hand, knocked, and voila! On the spot they were there. He was just greeting the old woman with an introductory little game; probably showing off too. "That was nothing," exactly as he said later. Asked by one of his guests how he did it, he said. "Oh, that was nothing. The spirits, of course."

________________________________________

* By this I don't mean to discredit or devalue such techniques as visualization, of course. Actually visualization is a must, and as Armine said earlier on this thread, rightly, we're constantly visualizing anyway. The problem with these techniques is that the road from the individual mind to the deeper or template mind goes through a dark "forest," usually full of predators and obstacles, called the "Subconscious Mind." Both the Mystic who can unite with the universal mind, or the Mind of God, and the Mage who can utilize the "agency" of spirits or any other powers; both just "fly" over this forest and they therefore get such miraculous and instant results.

Lotus, as far as the "intention" part of creation, well we create things we don't intend to all the time, don't we?  Car accidents and illnesses and unexpected bills...all stuff we don't intend to so where does that stuff fit into the equation?  Are you only speaking of deliberate creation there?  I know I personally am not looking to attract a lot of specific stuff, what I'd really like to do is stop attracting the unintended stuff like unexpected expenses (car repairs, vet bills, computer needs replacing etc...)

Haha, now the conversation is wandering back to "the others" with the talk of the collective.  I get what you are saying. So this "collective unconscious" would govern beliefs like "you can't grow taller as an adult"?  Unfortunately that thread I created about growing taller at the other place became quite a mess, so I'm afraid I don't remember it all and I apologize if you'd be repeating yourself here.

I think it is important to remember that it's all a projection and all visualizing.  I think so often it's a case that we see two different realities.  The crappy current circumstances we don't want, and then the intentional visualizations that we can use to escape, to just temporarily visit the reality we do want.  We believe there is a separateness of the two realities as Armine says.  We just have to remember that our visits to that reality we prefer don't have to only be temporary.

Lotus ♥ wrote:
First, the man didn't "believe" or "relax and visualize" or do any of that. He didn't even think much about it. He just closed his hand and then opened it with what he intended to materialize.

From my perspective, believe, relax and visualize are not separate from intend. They are together inevitably, and he simply embodied that peace and ease, without analyzing and complicating. He intended (as we all do, albeit somewhat sloppily- he did this immaculately and focused... focused doesn't mean forced as we sometimes might assume, but it means identifying for even a tiny moment) and it appeared.

I think believe, relax and visualize was so natural to him that while we see it as steps, he didn't have to see it at all. He just intended and didn't stand in its way with doubt. It seems the more caught up we are with this physical world, the harder we make it to manifest our desires seamlessly. The more we are keeping ourselves on the level of the one mind, the more seamless it is. Maybe that's not meant for all of us, but is a great example of what is possible. If he did that (which he did), then why do we pollute our mind with doubt about our desires? As the magician from Lotus' story said, "That was nothing. "

Thanks Lotus.

Yes kazoo, and that separateness itself is an illusion, which makes switching from one perceived reality to another quite simple. Hope that made as much sense as I wanted it to

as far as the "intention" part of creation, well we create things we don't intend to all the time, don't we?  Car accidents and illnesses and unexpected bills...all stuff we don't intend to so where does that stuff fit into the equation?

Kazoo: This is the "dark forest full of predators and obstacles" I just referred to. You assume you know all that's going on in your subconscious mind? Ma'am: Even the most powerful healer would fail to help a patient if her subconscious refused to be healed. The adept Kahunas in Hawaii, for example, tell the patient in such cases that "Something is eating her inside," or that "Something is blocking the way." What way? It's the way between the patient's Subconscious, where illness resides, and Super-conscious, where healing can take place. They thus stop their healing process and instead start a long investigation, even with the family and friends, just to find out what's "blocking the way." Do you know what the most common "block" is? Guilt! Guilt cuts off, completely, the link between you and the Source; or between your subconscious and all higher, healing and creative levels of the mind.

So a persistent illness, or a car accident, can be just an expression of deep sense of guilt. And that's why it's crucial to forgive yourself and others, love yourself and others, hold no grudges whatsoever, resolve all inner conflicts, constantly cleanse and purify your mind, and generally live up to the true Being you already are and the true powers you already have.

So this "collective unconscious" would govern beliefs like "you can't grow taller as an adult"?

Yes, that's it. However, you should always remember the paradox here. Don't fall in the trap that seven billion other people should first accept the idea in order for you to grow taller. The collective, albeit collective, is also one deeper level of your own mind. Quite tricky, isn't it?

The world is in you, my lady. You conquer your own mind, you literally conquer the whole world. And every change truly comes from within.

I think remembering that it's all a projection and all visualizing is important.  I think so often it's a case of seeing two different realities.  The crappy current circumstances we don't want, and then the intentional visualizations that we can use to escape, to just temporarily visit the reality we do want.  We believe there is a separateness of the two realities as Armine says.  We just have to remember that our visits to that reality we prefer don't have to only be temporary.

Yes, but the point I'd like to highlight here is, both realities are illusory. You just want a pleasant dream instead of a painful dream. But it's a dream either way. When you become fully and constantly aware of this, the painful dream will cease to feel really that painful, and the pleasant one won't remain that attractive to you. They are, now you see, but illusory dreams and you, Infinite Being-Knowing-Bliss, are far above both. You're therefore always still, in love and in peace; happy either way because your happiness doesn't come from either.

Armine, you're truly a simplifier. I wish I could catch up with your simplicity but I really can't. Yet, behind this simplicity, I hope your readers will be aware, your ideas here and generally are very profound—and very helpful on the practical level, I may add.

It seems the more caught up we are with this physical world, the harder we make it to manifest our desires seamlessly. The more we are keeping ourselves on the level of the one mind, the more seamless it is.

Yes exactly. I fully agree. That's because we create desires and equally create resistance all the time. Many therefore say that when they forgot about their desire, it manifested. When it was trivial and they didn't really "hunger" or "lust" for results, it manifested. When they let go, in other words, it manifested. In all these cases, they had less attachment, and consequently less resistance, and their desire therefore manifested.

This, or we have to train and control our mind a bit to take the other route, the royal road of the Mystic and the Mage: When I say, just for example "I'm wealthy," that's it. THAT'S IT. That's all it takes. It's done. There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that I AM wealthy. It's undoubtful. It's even unarguable. It's not a "proposal" to be considered but a "declaration" of a truth as certain as death. A "decree" instantly in effect. I'm wealthy and I'm not waiting for the external world or circumstances to prove it to me. I'm wealthy and I'm not looking hopefully for the so-called "universe" to answer, but by God the Almighty it is obliged to. I'm wealthy and THIS is the CAUSAL foundation of the world itself and of every proof or symbol of wealth there is, not the other way around.

It's only then that "the spirits" just obey. "Don't mess with this guy; just do it," they tell each other.

a great example of what is possible. If he did that (which he did), then why do we pollute our mind with doubt about our desires?

Exactly, ma'am. Actually that's why I mentioned those examples in the first place. In fact, there were a few recommendations that I had to delete from that post to keep as brief as possible. This was the last one:  

Lastly, never buy again into the rigidity of your conditions, the severity of your circumstances, or even the solidity of the matter all around you. All are just mental, not any more solid than a dream—not a BIT any more solid than a dream, or a movie on a screen. Physical reality is but a "mass hallucination," literally speaking. I hope the few examples above, out of literally hundreds, will help us fully realize this simple yet astonishing truth.  

There are so many points being made here, the good, the bad, and the weird that I have only just started catching up to these threads. They merit a serious response from yours truly but sadly. Life is in the way. However I'll do my best to quickly address some things that I feel need to be challenged.

I'll start with an easy point.

Night Eyes wrote:on the surface a lot of people come across like they want this lavish party party lifestyle

but when you ask them what they want and they think about it, most people just want some sort of peace and settlement

This is the second time I've read a claim like this in the last couple of days and I think it's debatable. Night Eyes is careful to say "a lot of people", but I've also seen it claimed that all people have a basic desire for peace. Why then are we all trapped in the net of samsara? We're addicted to our craving, and much as we say we want peace and happiness they are always within our reach, but we simply do not stop to touch our deeper state of being.

You see people in terrible relationships, and yet they keep on coming back together, they fight every day and it's exhausting but they seem to like the drama. It makes them feel alive.
People are stuck in their habitual thought patterns but they're actually hooked on them. As the Simplifier said, it doesn't take that much to change your thought patterns. On some level, a lot of people enjoy their own suffering. If they didn't enjoy it, they wouldn't be there.

Me for example, I'm an adrenaline junkie, have been since age 15. I'll do anything that gives me a high. In love relationships I'm addicted to the thrill of the chase and the drama. If it isn't killing me it isn't love. If we aren't climbing the highest pinnacles of being together it isn't love. It has to be spectacular and breathtaking. As Kahlil Gibran puts it,

For even as love crowns you so shall he crucify you. Even as he is for your growth so is he for your pruning. Even as he ascends to your height and caresses your tenderest branches that quiver in the sun, So shall he descend to your roots and shake them in their clinging to the earth......

I don't want peace. I want a crazy world in which I can be wounded, in which being near the beloved makes me feel like having my skin ripped off, in which highest bliss is balanced by deepest hell.

If you want peace? You pass into

the seasonless world where you shall laugh, but not all of your laughter, and weep, but not all of your tears. (again, Gibran)

You can't have that highest delight without the deepest sorrow. Earthly delight and earthly sorrow go hand in hand,



One is impossible without the other.

One of my best friends is into meditation and spirituality but says he wouldn't want to reach nirvana yet. He wants to enjoy this world with its worldly pleasures and hellish pains.

I think on some level we're all like that. If we weren't, we wouldn't be here, we'd be ethereal substances floating around in some netherworld. We are all light and bliss essentially but we cover it up.

We enjoy our addictions. I know I do.

But then to flip things around -

The Simplifier wrote:But it is absolutely possible to start shifting a paradigm in one sitting. ... It's super important to acknowledge that, because years of one belief doesn't require years to turn it around. It really does put the wheels in motion every time you suggest a new perspective of the belief. Sometimes what we think is so deeply rooted is actually mostly ready for change, only we are too afraid of the change...

Yes, I agree but also disagree with this. I agree that we often think it's hard to change and takes a long time simply because that's what we're always told. Some changes are in fact as easy as snapping out of it.
But re what you say here...

The Simplifier wrote:As for depression, it is dissolved with consistent suggestion of appropriate thoughts. There is no one size fits all affirmation or method or timeframe.

The answers largely lie within themselves and as soon as they understand they are 100% responsible for their feelings, then they will stop feeling down or melancholy or even deeply depressed and will not waste a second before turning it around...

I'll do my best not to be rude on this thread as I've obviously already upset kazoo by posting semi-naked girl pics when she was trying to be serious   . (Though arguably, what could be more serious than the expression of the divine in female beauty?   )
But this is just.....


Look, Simplifier, I won't even go into free will, that's another debate. Let's assume here that we do in fact have some sort of control over our thoughts and feelings.
...lol but we don't. Depression is a particularly vivid example of this. So yeah, let's say you're depressed and have a limiting belief that you have to stay that way.
It isn't a case of making a switch inside your brain - even assuming you could - and just going "oh look, I'm not depressed any more!" It never works that way. Your comment would seem to laugh at the related disciplines of psychology, psychiatry, counselling.

Before I talked about us enjoying our own suffering. I'm not sure if this is or isn't applicable to depressed people (lol the things I say work on different levels ). But the depressed people I have known in many ways do want to get out of their depression. Maybe not on a subconscious level and that's why they're stuck? I don't know, I'm not going there. My point is let's just say they do want to get better, all they long for is getting out of their depression.

You say they're 100% responsible for their own thoughts and feelings. They have control over their happiness. Even if this were true depression shows that it isn't. haha -

Clinical depression is an illness, like cancer. Would you tell a cancer patient to just get over it? I hate the Hicks' for many reasons, mostly because they spout gobbledegook that is like a parody of the spiritual truths that are underneath it all, but I almost feel sorry for them. LOA people, in touch with Abraham/Source, and yet Jerry dies of cancer. It was a medical disease. No matter what they intended he died (or did Esther and Jerry subconsciously desire this death?).


Which of course leads us back, inevitably, to the issue of blaming the victim that I brought up in another thread and no one had any answer for. Lotus talks of guilt, which I like. But no one's really gone into this on here as far as I can see. Ultimately, in LOA terms, Jerry manifested his own death. He caused his cancer himself. He was to blame.

Could he have flicked a switch and got out of it?

He had all the power of source with him, wisdom, and so on.

He didn't.

You can't just will away cancer. You similarly can't just make some shift and step out of depression like a new man. Yes, it is possible to get out of it. But I'm sad to say The Simplifier, whose posts I do generally enjoy, is echoing the common view of depression - people who don't take it seriously - "just get over it, man!"



Which brings us again to mental illness (lol I'm sorry I'm going all over the place, but so is this thread).

The mentally ill patient doesn't manifest, we are told, because he isn't in touch with the deeper Mind and he doesn't meet all the criteria for manifestation. But again.

Look.

Are you going to tell someone with Bipolar Disorder "oohh I'm sorry but you're 100% responsible for your reality, for your thoughts and emotions - just make a switch already! This is all under your own control!"

...say to someone with pica, "come on, stop eating everything, this is your own choice! it's in your own hands!"

...say to someone with anorexia, "your own problem honey, you shouldn't have these thoughts that make you unable to eat"

I'm sorry to call you out on this but it honestly needs reconsidering.


---
for people who don't know what pica is, it's an...interesting...mental illness.

Pica (/ˈpaɪkə/ py-kə) is characterized by an appetite for substances that are largely non-nutritive, such as paper, clay, metal, chalk, soil, glass, or sand.[1] According to DSM-IV (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 4th Edition) criteria, for these actions to be considered pica, they must persist for more than one month at an age where eating such objects is considered developmentally inappropriate, not part of culturally sanctioned practice and sufficiently severe to warrant clinical attention. There are different variations of pica, as it can be from a cultural tradition, acquired taste, or a neurological mechanism such as an iron deficiency or a chemical imbalance.

I can't contribute anything of my own right now, but these current discussions have brought to mind two quotes:

Tao engenders One;
One engenders Two;
Two engenders Three;
Three engenders all things.
All things carry the yin (femininity)
while embracing the yang (masculinity).
Neutralising energy brings them into harmony.

- Tao Te Ching



"If I teach you that your nature is evil, that you should go home and sit in sack cloth and ashes and weep your lives out because you took certain false steps, I will not help you, but will weaken you all the more, and I shall be showing you the road to more evil than good. If this room is full of darkness for thousands of years and you come in and begin to weep and wail, "Oh, the darkness", will darkness vanish? Strike a match, and light comes in a moment. What good will it do you to think all your lives, "Oh, I have done evil, I have made many mistakes"? It requires no ghost to tell us that. Bring in the light, and evil goes in a moment. Build up your character, and manifest your real nature, the Effulgent, the Resplendent, the Ever-Pure, and call It up in everyone that you see.

I wish that everyone of us had come to such a state that even in the vilest of human beings we could see the Real Self within, and instead of condemning them say, "Rise thou effulgent One, rise thou who art always pure, rise thou birthless and deathless, rise Almighty and manifest thy true nature. These little manifestations do not befit thee." This is the highest prayer that the Advaita teaches. This is the one prayer to remember our true nature, the God who is always within us, thinking of it always as infinite, almighty, ever good, ever beneficent, selfless, bereft of all limitations. And because that nature is selfless, it is strong and fearless; for only to selfishness comes fear. He who has nothing to desire for himself, whom does he fear, and what can frighten him?"

-Swami Vivekananda

❤

Phanty, the only answer i can give you in response to what you wrote to me... sometimes people stick to what they know, they're comfy in their situation even if its not a nice one, because they know it, and they can predict it, and somehow it becomes a safety net, to step outside of it and face something new can be quite daunting... so they just stay stuck.

Everything you ever wanted is on the other side of Fear.

Hi Phantasm,

I see where you're coming from with your perspective and it's obviously based on your observations, as are all of our posts.

Not sure if you're familiar with my own experiences, but I have been clinically depressed- for about ten years in the past. The irony of depression is that we do have the choice to heal and since we are not connected to source during that time like we would be when we are seeing clearly (because we are holding ourselves in low vibration), we do not believe it, do not acknowledge our power, and so when someone even merely suggests that it is possible to not be depressed, we are hurt and use that as an excuse to feel even worse. How dare anyone suggest I want this for myself? Obviously I don't want it, how stupid do they think I am? Who would choose this?" And that's if they are even capable in that moment of caring enough to think those things... more likely they get into bed and shut it all out.

So, I've known people who are/were depressed, I've been there myself for a stretch of my own life and having come out of it, I can say that yes it is a mental disease and yes it is heal-able. The symptoms are different from others diseases that can be seen, but many other diseases also cannot seen.

Although I kept my depression a "secret" (you can't really hide it but I didn't talk about it or even get counseling for the most part), there were the ones who I did open up to, and they gave me something like you posted in the image.

Some people just don't believe depression is real. So what? I got frustrated then realized that I'm glad they don't get it. I'm glad that they don't think it's real because in order for them to think it's real, they would know how it feels. And I would prefer they did not go through this themselves. I wished them well and that was even part of my healing. No, clinical depression doesn't have to dissolve overnight but we are never at a time when there isn't at least one crack in the day when we can choose to feel better, even for a few seconds. One second. A split second. That's all it takes to start.

So, if you disagree that is ok. There are thousands of different views on this or any subject, and I appreciate your caring for people who are suffering. Consider that nobody is powerless, though. Nobody is powerless for years at a time. There is always an opportunity coming along to feel relief, even if it means crying 15 times that day instead of 16. Everything is relative and subjective, and progress is that way, too.

Thanks

Thanks for the interesting discussion guys!

Lotus ♥ wrote: You assume you know all that's going on in your subconscious mind?

Ha, no.  The best I figure is that our current reality is a reflection of subconscious and we can only guess what may be going on subconsciously by what we are manifesting.

I personally don't relate to guilt.  At least not on a conscious level anyway.  Fears, sure.  But I guess it doesn't really matter what the negative root feeling is, it's the same process, right?

So, on a practical level, how do you suggest we handle the unintended manifestations?  It can't just be a lot of self talk like "My cat's not sick, that's just an illusion.  She doesn't need to go to the vet" or "I don't have to pay those bills, those bills are just a painful dream!"  It would be great if we could simply dismiss troubles that way but we know we can't.  I guess I am asking for specific responses to these negative experiences so that we experience them less often?  (Assuming that asking to never experience those kinds of things is a reach at this level...)  While we can tell ourselves of course our overall happiness isn't diminished by the painful experiences we'd still prefer to avoid them as much as possible.


Phantasm, I get what you are saying about mental illness.  You're right.  It seems that with mental illnesses people often blame the ill when they wouldn't do that with other illnesses.  But in LoA terms all illness should be just as curable as any the other, right?  Cancer should be as easy to cure as a cold.  Well, that would be the theory anyway.  But again, our beliefs about all of these things are at work here.

Is your issue with Jerry Hicks that he died at all or that he died from cancer specifically?  Are we to expect someone to live for an eternity just because they are associated with a higher level of understanding?  Are there specific acceptable ways for such people to pass?  Just curious what your line of thinking is here.

i would assume with these spiritual people that perhaps to them Death isn't as big a deal with them? they know spiritually that we don't die, or we move on to another plain of existence to whatever it is they believe in, so to them there wouldn't be as much fear as your average normal person?

as we get older though regardless of whatever we believe in, the thought of living forever might not seem as appealing, perhaps it would become boring, i mean, as we age, even if we stay healthy and fit we still wont have the sprightly youthfullness so eternity may get a bit monotonous.

Night Eyes, of course you're right, people are stuck because it's what they're used to, and they're actually comfortable with it which is why people (who aren't mentally ill/depressed) do stay "caught" - the net of samsara is in some way as you say a safety net. They're used to pain and suffering and human joy. On some level they simply don't desire to escape because they're more comfortable with what's familiar to them.

The Simplifier wrote:
I see where you're coming from with your perspective and it's obviously based on your observations, as are all of our posts.
...
Some people just don't believe depression is real.  So what?  I got frustrated then realized that I'm glad they don't get it.

Thanks for your reply Simplifier. I'm sorry also that you've been there, depression is an ugly place to be as we both know. Of course I speak partly from experience yes, but I'm sorry if it came across like I'm just talking out of personal frustration. It took becoming depressed myself to be able to feel any real compassion for these people, before I thought they were just making excuses. But now that I have been there it angers me that there isn't more awareness of what people go through.

You say they'd have to be there themselves in order to be understanding - I beg to differ. The fact that this is what happened in my own situation does not mean it is the only way. If there was better public awareness of depression it could potentially save lives. There are people across the world suffering, hiding it as you tried to, who have no support systems, there are people who don't even go to counsellors (I never did - though I really should have). People everywhere are depressed and the prevalent attitude is oh, depression is no big deal, just get over it already. It is a big deal. Some people commit suicide. Some people are beyond clinical depression even, they've got treatment-resistant depression.

Look at Robin Williams. Do you think a talented man like him wouldn't have "fixed" his depression through any means possible if he could have? He had the money to pay anyone to "fix" him. No one could. And no, he couldn't "fix" himself either, I'll get onto that later.
Robin Williams' death at least helped to lift some of the stigma off depression. It showed the world that yes, even millionaire comic actors can be that depressed. It isn't a cop-out. It's a real illness and should be treated with respect, just like any other illness.

It's a while since my severe depression. Even at the time I didn't personally care whether people understood me or not. I've always been a loner. I don't care crap about what other people think of me. That the ones who knew didn't try to understand - their problem not mine. But I do think this attitude is a problem globally, that's why I had to point this out. You wouldn't say someone would have to experience cancer in order to feel sympathy for a cancer patient. In the same way, you don't have to experience depression in order to feel sympathy for someone suffering from it. You just need to be made aware that this "invisible" baddie is a real problem and not something that you can just get over.

The Simplifier wrote:
The irony of depression is that we do have the choice to heal and since we are not connected to source during that time like we would be when we are seeing clearly (because we are holding ourselves in low vibration), we do not believe it, do not acknowledge our power, and so when someone even merely suggests that it is possible to not be depressed, we are hurt and use that as an excuse to feel even worse.  How dare anyone suggest I want this for myself?  Obviously I don't want it, how stupid do they think I am?  Who would choose this?"  And that's if they are even capable in that moment of caring enough to think those things... more likely they get into bed and shut it all out.

Yes, it is an irony, I agree. But what you're basically saying is "You can stop being depressed if you realise that you are always one with source. But in order to see that you are always one with source you would have to be not depressed." Irony? Yes. But this is what we keep coming back to. The problem of "choice". You can't make the choice to get out because you're in a state in which you can't make the choice to get out.

So let's say that depression could be cured instantly just by dropping the limiting belief that it can't be cured instantly. People who are severely depressed don't have the choice to drop the limiting belief, because they are severely depressed. They can't get out of it because they are in it, in other words. Yes, it's a paradox, but at bottom it's simple.
'You can do what you decide to do — but you cannot decide what you will decide to do.' - Sam Harris.
You can't make a choice that isn't available to you from your current frame of reference. Saying you could make that choice from another frame of reference is about as helpful as saying "if a fish had legs it and could breathe air it could probably climb a tree". The fish doesn't have legs, and the person with depression isn't not depressed.

The Simplifier wrote:No, clinical depression doesn't have to dissolve overnight but we are never at a time when there isn't at least one crack in the day when we can choose to feel better, even for a few seconds.  One second.  A split second.  That's all it takes to start.  

Yes, this I do agree with. I'm sorry, from your original message from the phrasing it sounded as if you were saying even people in deep depression only had to decide and suddenly they would be better.
The thing about powerlessness I'm still not totally convinced on - some people genuinely are trapped. In the most extreme scenario, there is treatment-resistant depression, but there are plenty who are just stuck in depression because they are stuck in depression. As we said they always have inner power but they can't access it.

Thanks for the discussion.

dont forget there's different Types of Depression so each would be treated differently, with various techniques, some would possibly be easier to come out of as Armine describes, others would benefit from various medications and therapies, not just counselling, as that's not going to specialise in depression, the counsellor wouldnt necessarily be qualified to deal with it or understand it enough, just the issues that may have lead to the depression, maybe not clinical depression as that doesnt need a reason... its just there, so you would rely on mental health teams, and psychiatrists and psychologists, mental health nurses etc

i do agree that there may be points in the day that would be easier, or even stretch the length of time, to good days and bad days, so good days would be easier to re-connect spiritually and try to gain some momentum.

lol Night you responded before I could even post my reply to kazoo! Blitz reply Of course there are different types of depression, I was generalizing pretty bad I admit. Thanks for the correction. Doesn't really change my argument though.

kazoo wrote:Phantasm, I get what you are saying about mental illness.  You're right.  It seems that with mental illnesses people often blame the ill when they wouldn't do that with other illnesses.  But in LoA terms all illness should be just as curable as any the other, right?  Cancer should be as easy to cure as a cold.  Well, that would be the theory anyway.  But again, our beliefs about all of these things are at work here.

Is your issue with Jerry Hicks that he died at all or that he died from cancer specifically?  Are we to expect someone to live for an eternity just because they are associated with a higher level of understanding?  Are there specific acceptable ways for such people to pass?  Just curious what your line of thinking is here.

Thanks kazoo. Lol of course people have to die. But would you choose to die by cancer? Are you suggesting Jerry thought, oh, well time to kick the bucket now, cancer is good a way as any? I've had cancer in my family and no it isn't a pretty way to die. Swami Vivekananda chose his time of death. When he wanted to die, he just told everyone he was leaving them, went to bed, and next morning he was gone.

But maybe I'm just biased because I can't stand these people and their claptrap. Yes, they did communicate lots of important spiritual truths to a wider audience. But the whole "ooooh Abraham tells Esther this"...  

Compare people like that to genuine spiritual teachers such as Vivekananda or J. Krishnamurti...and I will give you a piece of my mind lol. You can't compare them, there is no way even to start a comparison. I'm not the world's biggest Neville Goddard enthusiast either but I respect him greatly. Neville Goddard, Napoleon Hill...yes, yes, in their place. But I don't have time for the Hicks' and Rhonda Byrnes of this world, they give spirituality a bad name. This probably won't make me very popular on here but then I guess I'm already not very popular because I don't like cats. (Honestly, the way people turn against people not like themselves... I'm gonna cry now. And abandon the forum. )

Kidding. Everyone's different so we can definitely agree to disagree here. But true gurus don't seek fame or wealth in the way that they did. Among other things it's the commercialization and "Disneyfication" of the spiritual that bugs me. Spirituality should not be about seeking status or worldly pleasures (though heh, as I said I do like worldly pleasures). Spirituality is beyond that. Did you ever see a rich monk? Trying to pawn off as many copies of his book as possible? I don't see anything to suggest the Hicks' weren't self-centred and self-seeking and just after a profit. The fact that Jerry died of cancer would just seem to further prove that they weren't quite as magically attuned to universal laws as they'd have people believe.

Selina's quoted from the Tao Te Ching (though it's a dodgy translation ). The TTC also states:

Fame or integrity: which is more important?
Money or happiness: which is more valuable?
Success or failure: which is more destructive?

If you look to others for fulfillment,
you will never truly be fulfilled.
If your happiness depends on money,
You will never be happy with yourself.

Be content with what you have;
rejoice in the way things are.
When you realise there is nothing lacking
the whole world belongs to you.

TTC 44, trans. Stephen Mitchell


This is ancient wisdom the Hicks' obviously had no hold of. Success tends to corrupt. Fame corrupts. Even money corrupts, though sure, there's nothing wrong with money in itself, and I can understand people wanting it. The times in my life I haven't had it, I've wanted it too. But to me the Hicks' and Rhonda Byrnes reek of materialism.
That's one of my main issues with Jerry Hicks.


That and a strong smell of hypocrisy.
But as I say, they did communicate spiritual truths. I just object to the fake seance-type self-seeking way in which they did it.

kazoo wrote:So, on a practical level, how do you suggest we handle the unintended manifestations?  It can't just be a lot of self talk like "My cat's not sick, that's just an illusion.  She doesn't need to go to the vet" or "I don't have to pay those bills, those bills are just a painful dream!"  It would be great if we could simply dismiss troubles that way but we know we can't.  I guess I am asking for specific responses to these negative experiences so that we experience them less often?  (Assuming that asking to never experience those kinds of things is a reach at this level...)  While we can tell ourselves of course our overall happiness isn't diminished by the painful experiences we'd still prefer to avoid them as much as possible.

This ain't good, guys. How can I answer this? lol (By the way, for our newer members here, Kazoo does know very well the answers to most if not all of these questions so don't be fooled. She only creates new spaces for our discussions to go on and develop and prosper, and she, and Rodan as well, are indeed true artists in this department).

I'll leave this round for you, Armine and Phantasm. (This Phantasm by the way really needs more attention I guess. He's a unique blend of Roosevelt and Maverick and a very good reader as well. Will get to you soon, Phanty!)
 

Meanwhile, you think about this, Kazoo: when you say "negative experience": Is the experience negative, itself negative, inherently negative, or is it rather your "interpretation" of the experience?

The cat is sick. You don't like it. So you call it negative and hate it and refuse it and now want to avoid it. What you refuse and hate and call negative, however, is not the sickness of the cat, but your own interpretations, judgments and fears that you associate with this sickness. Right?

There can always be fault or issues found in any messenger.  Get your wisdom and knowledge from all you are drawn to.  Don't get hung up on the messenger, pay attention and learn from the message they are delivering to you from the Universe.

Awareness, consciousness, is conveying to you what you seek. It doesn't have to come from a specific spiritual master, a Jerry/Ester Hicks, Bashar, LOA teachers,  your favorite religious leader, etc.  

It can come from the homeless man who lives on the street, or a man or lady who strikes up a conversation with you while shopping in a store.   

The message is what's important. Not who or what delivers it.  When you ask of the Universe, the answer will come, in any form it can use. 

I don't want to diminish the importance of the role they play.  They serve a purpose. Just don't be disappointed if and when you find fault in them.  

Remember, follow the message, not the messenger.

Nicely put rodan. However I will still stay away from messengers tainted by money-making and the smell of scam.

Also so called spiritual leaders who try to make you dependent on them and their philosophies are always suspect IMO.

rodan wrote:There can always be fault or issues found in any messenger.  Get your wisdom and knowledge from all you are drawn to.  Don't get hung up on the messenger, pay attention and learn from the message they are delivering to you from the Universe.

Awareness, consciousness, is conveying to you what you seek. It doesn't have to come from a specific spiritual master, a Jerry/Ester Hicks, Bashar, LOA teachers,  your favorite religious leader, etc.  

It can come from the homeless man who lives on the street, or a man or lady who strikes up a conversation with you while shopping in a store.   

The message is what's important. Not who or what delivers it.  When you ask of the Universe, the answer will come, in any form it can use. 

I don't want to diminish the importance of the role they play.  They serve a purpose. Just don't be disappointed if and when you find fault in them.  

Remember, follow the message, not the messenger.

Yes... yes.

Oh man. I was totally pumped to read how Simplifier had burned holes in my argument.... and you give me nothing. NOTHING...

Guess I'll just have to go and do some presses to work off all that frustration. 

No pressure. 

Phantasm, your frustration with depression comes from care and compassion. I am not offended, since it is clear you have been affected by depression in some or various forms. I rarely get frustrated by that anymore, but sometimes get uneasy at, for example, how much it hurts you to feel that way, because I know what that feels like and know it doesn't help. It's like being angry at sickness or crime. Being angry at it is painful and virtually useless, when coming to peace with it and knowing that everyone is evolving in some way, is conducive to solutions.

Maybe we see it differently, and that in itself is testing our reactions to that. I used to get heated up a lot more often about how can people say this or that and be inconsiderate to someone's state, then I understood that people who are hurt are the ones who hurt people. So I don't blame them anymore. I choose to have compassion for them. When we see ourselves as powerless, we draw people around us who will reflect that thought about us. That's why because of universal law, in a depressed state we are not dominantly aligned with those who are going to empower us, but more likely those who will feel sorry for us or judge us. That is the vibration of depression.

I also, like you, have contemplated the "making money" aspect. I came to a place where I chose tolerance. If I judge someone - anyone - for earning money, then I'm creating resistance against money. I'm saying one person deserves money for their work, but another doesn't? Does a person have to be proving to do work they don't like in order to more rightfully deserve to be compensated? Then I'd have to believe that money is earned through punishment, and if I'd ever want to be wealthy then I'd have to trade my happiness for it. I want everyone to live their purpose and do what they love to do and be paid well while doing it.

No, it's not nice if anyone is saying "you must pay us if you want to be happy or successful", but I don't know anyone who does that. Or rather, I'm not tuned in to them, so they're not in my awareness. There are plenty of people who teach spirit science and are fair and give more information and value than they have to. They also teach self empowerment and not to be dependent on anyone in order to be successful and happy, even on them. It's easy for people to start treating you like a god who has all the answers and they just come back for you to tell them the answers... but that's not what it's all about. It's the opposite. Turning that question around and asking themselves is the real point- and for them to realize that they have all the answers when they need them. How else can people develop intuition except to start depending on their own?