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Top 10 Topics
• Neville's Teachings
• Manifesting through the Law of Giving / Recieving
• "Build it and it will come"
• 7 day manifestation experiment
• Limiting Beliefs
• "Attachment" and "Letting Go"
• On Suffering and Avoiding (Spira)
• What are you grateful for today?
• Procrastination and Laziness
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Limiting Beliefs

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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by The Simplifier on Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:40 pm

Hahahaha I was writing as you were writing.
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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by Phantasm on Sat Sep 05, 2015 4:33 pm

I manifested that one quickly. Very Happy Sorry, my lady, but you were three minutes too late. Very Happy Now I'm on a dying phone that will go flat in a matter of seconds, so I'll get back to you later.

After the next set of push-ups (none can say that I don't try Razz so kazoo if you ever want to get in touch with your friends at Victoria's Secret...I'll be ready.)
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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by Phantasm on Sun Sep 06, 2015 6:22 am

The Simplifier wrote:Phantasm, your frustration with depression comes from care and compassion. I am not offended, since it is clear you have been affected by depression in some or various forms. I rarely get frustrated by that anymore, but sometimes get uneasy at, for example, how much it hurts you to feel that way, because I know what that feels like and know it doesn't help. It's like being angry at sickness or crime. Being angry at it is painful and virtually useless, when coming to peace with it and knowing that everyone is evolving in some way, is conducive to solutions.

Well I definitely didn't mean to offend you, I don't mean any of it personally at all. I'm really talking general here and the fact that you happened to be on the receiving end. Well. I'm just surprised that lovely people like you end up talking about depression as if it doesn't mean anything and the people suffering it are actually to blame for it. That attitude doesn't help anybody. Yes, getting angry about it doesn't help. But if we pushed for a change globally, bit by bit, just by slowly raising awareness about depression, it could save lives. Literally. There are people out there not reaching out because of the stigma of depression. I was one of them. I was lucky; I found the LOA and got back to spirituality. But some people suffer in silence and ultimately can't bear it. Blaming these victims and saying they are responsible for their own feelings is really not going to help them.


Simplifer wrote:I also, like you, have contemplated the "making money" aspect. I came to a place where I chose tolerance. If I judge someone - anyone - for earning money, then I'm creating resistance against money.

And yet I've held these same views all my life and have never had any trouble with money? Money comes to me easily, always has. Which is why I think the so-called laws of "resistance" don't always work.

I'm saying one person deserves money for their work, but another doesn't? Does a person have to be proving to do work they don't like in order to more rightfully deserve to be compensated? Then I'd have to believe that money is earned through punishment, and if I'd ever want to be wealthy then I'd have to trade my happiness for it. I want everyone to live their purpose and do what they love to do and be paid well while doing it.

Very eloquently put. Sure, everyone deserves money, but some kinds of work are more aligned to money-making than others. Purely spiritual work shouldn't be mixed up with business. But as to LOA life coaches and similar Smiley  I didn't mean to imply that I class them alongside say the Hicks'. Hell no. Different story. A life coach of any kind LOA or not is a life coach. You do work, you deserve money. And you're not providing some sort of crappy seance style thing and selling people CDs. Reminds me of a My Family episode where a fake yoga/spirituality teacher comes to teach Susan "meditation" and gives her these fake candles and fake music. Yeah there's a difference, the Hicks' do actually communicate some good points. But the smell of "we want to make the most money out of you" is exactly the same.

Turning that question around and asking themselves is the real point- and for them to realize that they have all the answers when they need them. How else can people develop intuition except to start depending on their own?

Well yes this paragraph, exactly, real spiritual practitioners try to make you LESS dependent on them. Never saw anything like that happening with the Hicks'. "come to our next seminar".... quacks!

Oh and I've been meaning to post this pirat when I listen to some of the Hicks' "Abe" stuff, or Deepak Chopra (God save me) this is how I feel:



the ending is the best...

And if perchance I have offended
Think but this and all is mended:
We'd as well be 10 minutes back in time,
For all the chance you'll change your mind.
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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by Phantasm on Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:13 am

Lotus ♥️ wrote:I'll leave this round for you, Armine and Phantasm. (This Phantasm by the way really needs more attention I guess. He's a unique blend of Roosevelt and Maverick and a very good reader as well. Will get to you soon, Phanty!) Very Happy

Belated response, but now even Lotus is calling me Phanty?



FYI, all of you, Phantasm is firstly a reference to the band which I guess most of you are clueless about.



Secondly it's a nod to my love of the horror genre and especially the Phantom of the Opera. Actually I've always loved the opera ghost from the original Phantom of the Opera, no, not the shitty adaptations or the pukeworthy musical. The actual book. It's a masterpiece. It's totally underrated

“If I am the phantom, it is because man's hatred has made me so. If I am to be saved it is because your love redeems me.” Gaston Leroux The Phantom of the Opera
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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by Night Eyes on Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:19 am

I absolutely love Tim Minchin!!!!!! he's sooooo funny, unless your easily offended of course!

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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by Phantasm on Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:21 am

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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by Night Eyes on Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:25 am

*tries very hard not to giggle*

i have all his dvd's

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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by Phantasm on Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:34 am



Very Happy
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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by Guest on Sun Sep 06, 2015 10:18 am

Just dropping in this little thought... I love you




*sits back and enjoys the discussion Smiley *

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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by Phantasm on Sun Sep 06, 2015 1:04 pm

Selina you're missing the whole point. You can't just "change". Since you obviously don't read my posts please read this.

One of the most ignorant and insensitive statements that anyone can make to someone with depression is "snap out of it."

Unfortunately, this statement is uttered constantly to people who are depressed.

So why don't the ignorant people who say "snap out of it" to people with depression tell people with other illnesses to "snap out of it"?

Because they do not understand that depression is an illness.

Illness? Depression is an illness? Some may ask. Yes, depression is an illness. People do not choose depression. Depression causes a chemical imbalance in the brain, and thus people can't "snap out of it."

People with depression need treatment, just like people with other illnesses need treatment. But many people who have depression do not receive treatment because of the societal stigma that is associated with depression.

Many people think individuals with depression are weak. And that they are choosing to be depressed, or they are just acting. And thus should be able to "snap out of it."

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

Not only is depression an illness that people cannot "snap out of," but untreated depression is also the number one cause for suicide.

Depression is a very serious mental illness that always needs to be treated

And it is highly treatable.

The vast majority of people who receive treatment for their depression get better. If you believe that you are suffering from depression, please make appointments with a doctor and a therapist so you can be assessed and treated.

Please read the depression and suicide page on this website for more information about depression and its symptoms.

And if anyone ever says "snap out of it" to you, remember that they are ignorant and insensitive, and that is their problem, not yours.

Get help if you need it.

And do so now.

And if you know someone who is depressed, please do everything that you can do get them the help that they need.

Remember that untreated depression is the number one cause for suicide.


Source: suicide.org

This is why I keep saying we need to raise awareness.
Yes, depression is usually treatable.
No, it usually doesn't go away altogether.
This is why people on antidepressants still continue in their vicious cycles.
Simplifier talks about "windows" in every day, stretching them out...

But I wonder, to what extent is depression actually down to our material brains. Neural pathways and that jzz. I mean it's a mental hijink. To what extent can we ever really control it?

As I keep saying, thoughts keep popping up. You don't have as much control over your thoughts as you'd like to think. They come they go.


But for the sake of argument: from the pure LOA perspective ANY depression should be curable, right? I'm mainly asking Simplifier but anyone can answer.

Ok let's look at clinical depression,

Major depressive disorder (MDD) (also known as clinical depression, major depression, unipolar depression, or unipolar disorder; or as recurrent depression in the case of repeated episodes) is a mental disorder characterized by a pervasive and persistent low mood that is accompanied by low self-esteem and by a loss of interest or pleasure in normally enjoyable activities.

Major depressive disorder is a disabling condition that adversely affects a person's family, work or school life, sleeping and eating habits, and general health. In the United States, around 3.4% of people with major depression commit suicide, and up to 60% of people who commit suicide had depression or another mood disorder.


and from Psychcentral


Q: I’m wondering if any of you therapists have heard of a case like mine. I have been severely, suicidally depressed for over two years. During that time I have been in weekly therapy and tried many so-called antidepressants” and “mood stabilizers” prescribed by the four psychiatrists I’ve seen. These drugs had absolutely no effect on my mood. They include Celexa Effexor, Remeron, Zoloft, Lamictal, Wellbutrin, Anafranil, Buspar, and Seroquel. (In addition, I have various benzos for anxiety and sleep). I have also been in an out-patient CBT-oriented program (6 hrs a day, 3 days a week). Last June I was hospitalized in the psych ward for a week. Nothing helps me. I’ve gone through the mental health system and it has provided no help. Every day is a nightmare, a living hell. I try to sleep as much as possible since it’s the only time I am not in agony. Because therapy, medication, and hospitalization do not work as advertised I seem to have used all my options except for one. I’m thinking I’ll soon have to use that option, since all the others have failed. I am very angry at the mental health profession for assuring me that medication and therapy would ease my depression and then finding it to be not so.



Does this person have the option to change? really? You're telling this person that though nothing has worked, therapy, medications...   obviously trying to retrain the brain..    nothing has worked but this person has the responsibility for his or her own emotions?

Selina you're really missing the point. You can't just wake up one morning and change. Vivekananda is great but you don't just strike a match and all the darkness goes away. You strike a match and if you're in a place like that a chill wind blows it out.

Also getting back to the supermodels.

Are you really, seriously telling me that if I just believed, and this belief somehow was aligned to the superconscious/collective unconscious...that I could attract Elsa Hosk into my life? That I could be the guy on the right?



I reckon Lotus at least thinks that would be impossible. Razz

In the end, some things just are beyond possibility. Using LOA on untreatable depression is one of them. Me getting with a Victoria's Secret model is another.

Thanks for reading.
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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by lunareclipse on Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:37 pm

Phantasm wrote:
Are you really, seriously telling me that if I just believed, and this belief somehow was aligned to the superconscious/collective unconscious...that I could attract Elsa Hosk into my life? That I could be the guy on the right?

If you moved to Northern or North-Eastern Europe, you could easily attract someone who looks exactly like her.
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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by The Simplifier on Sun Sep 06, 2015 11:06 pm

@Phantasm,

"But for the sake of argument: from the pure LOA perspective ANY depression should be curable, right?"

All is pure LOA, so our unique perspectives are all valid, and at the same time, all depression is curable because we all have the choice at one point or another as to what we prefer. The depressed person knows they prefer to not be depressed. That piece of knowledge is far more significant than it's sometimes given credit.

To know that something is painful, and to know you want it to be over, is instrumental. Where does the depressed person differ from someone with a healthier current state of being? He knows it's painful, says I want relief, then stays in the asking state. So, relief cannot come.

So blame is a dirty word, but responsible is one that would be more appropriate. The longer he stays in the asking place, the more 'solidified' the habit becomes, and depression ensues. If this is understood earlier on, depression can be prevented. So, as compassionate as it may be to "save" clinically depressed people, it is, in my opinion, a more effective approach to address the mental process before it has a chance to spiral into depression as we know it.

Choosing to vibrate to the answer is always the way to feel better, to heal, to succeed. If it seems impossible in a deeply depressive, chronic state, that is because it simply seems that way- and so it will be, for that person. However, being more aware of the LoA and how our psycho-physical nature works, that deeply depressive state is unlikely to develop. If it does develop, then that person was choosing to feel that way and insisting that suffering is the only option. Even if everyone says you can enjoy life and you say no I can't, no I can't, then yes, you (whoever it is) are responsible for the path to depression. Even if people around them are saying hey, your worthless and good for nothing- it is still that person's choice to accept that or not. If they are already feeling depressed and the people around them are saying that's bs, you're just lazy- it is still their choice to accept that or not. Yes, the more solidified the habit is, the more likely they will choose to accept negative suggestions over positive.

Depression doesn't control a person. It doesn't cause the chemical imbalance. The chemical imbalance caused by chronic thoughts, in turn causes what we call depression.
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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by kazoo on Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:46 am

Phantasm, a few things...

You know, we here have discussed the LoA gurus, teachers, whatever you want to call them a bunch of times and there are opinions like yours. Some find fault that they haven't reached an "elite level of success" (however they define that...) and some might think that it's fine to be rich and talk about LoA as long as your wealth came from some other source. I honestly don't mind if people find their success in spreading the word about LoA. That doesn't necessarily tarnish them in my eyes.

I'm not a huge fan of the Hicks. The gimmicky catch phrases annoy me most of the time, but I recognize that many people are fans and resonate with how Abe explains the concepts. Rhonda Byrne takes some crap too, but I give her a lot of credit for introducing LoA to the masses. Each teacher can make their contributions in their own way and articulates in their own way and I don't have a problem with it. Just because it's not exactly the right fit for me doesn't mean it hasn't helped someone else. And that's all that matters is that people are being helped.

Now, as far as what you have been writing about depression. Well, I think you certainly posted it on the right thread because what you are writing is so full of limiting beliefs! That's ok, because I agree with so much of what you've said and I think you've probably seen a similar sentiment in a lot of my recent points where the main point is "it's not that simple." And it's why I've been so hung up on all of the people who try to apply LoA in their lives and end up failing to get what they want.

Of course we will be told over and over again that it is indeed that simple. And we can understand that on an intellectual level. But putting it all into practice can be a whole different matter. And it just makes the whole process frustrating because it's supposed to be so simple but we can't manage to make it all happen the way we want! So I get where you're coming from.
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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by Night Eyes on Mon Sep 07, 2015 2:52 am

Just going to stick my own quick opinion of things

I know plenty of people with varying types of Depression, and well firstly, i guess you have to be aware of Loa for most of this discussion to become valid..... and depression is a sneaky little thing... you don't always realise that's what it is when it first sets in, especially Clinical i mean you dont even know why you're low in the first place.

I personally am on the fence about taking responsibility on changing your thoughts... i see both perspectives, but then thoughts are often involuntary, so can we actually change them? we all get awful thoughts whether we want them or not, they just 'pop in' its the same with anxiety and other mental health issues (which i have personally found all interact with depression, depression doesn't usually turn up on it it's own, it brings friends).... they're just there... so my outlook is, you cant change them or make them go away..... but what you can do, is change your reaction to them, you can say.. no i'm not going to allow this to hurt me, i'm not going to let this define me or who i am

But then on the other hand... is Depression always a thought, if you have deep depression.. its a feeling aswell isnt it? you dont have to be thinking rubbishy things, it can be just this fog or this cloud hanging over you, and i have been around people who are doing the things they enjoy, making the effort and trying to break free from it, and they still have that low emotion and lack of motivation.

and well it still depends on their knowledge of Loa

i wonder if they would benefit more from the more Spiritual side of things, trying to find peace and dropping the ego.. some Meditation and Mindfullness.
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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by Phantasm on Mon Sep 07, 2015 3:06 am

Edit: this was written before I saw Nine Eyes' post.

Hi ladies Smiley

I'll break this down into bite-sized nuggets.

Phantasm quoting Tim Minchin wrote:We'd as well be 10 minutes back in time,
For all the chance you'll change your mind.

These words turned out to be strangely prophetic. Or not; maybe my belief that I wouldn't be able to convince you meant that, and voila, you convinced were not. Very Happy

So let's look at an extreme example. We all have these alternate realities yes? There should be a universe where I convinced you.

Forgetting that, LOA states (in my understanding anyway) that you change your belief and you change your world.

Let's say that I believed at the conscious and subconscious level that Simplifier had suddenly changed her mind and agreed with everything I said.
If that actually happened it would be magic!

Some people talk of simply aligning yourself to the reality you want. Would that be possible though? There's some talk of collective unconscious beliefs -- is the collective unconscious belief that people don't change their minds that easily and arguing tends to make them even more caught up in their own beliefs so strong that it made me powerless to change my own belief that you won't change your mind? That there is no reality in which you agree with me? Very Happy

But I've already been told off elsewhere for bringing alternate realities into the discussion. Maybe we need to keep things simple until this lad in any case understands these so-called basics that often make sense do not. Very Happy

***

I'd like you to do an experiment.

Lotus said "never buy again into the rigidity of your conditions...or even the solidity of the matter around you".

However let's test the statement "nothing is impossible".

By changing your own beliefs about it being impossible to bring me over to your side of this debate, could you actually win me over?

If nothing is impossible you ought to be able to wake up in a world where I believe in the Christian God, for example, just as the result of you changing your belief about me. No?

Well, we can test it easily. Try to manifest a version of Phantasm who believes in God. I can guarantee you, you could still be trying for the next fifty, sixty, seventy years and nothing would change.

There are some things that aren't possible. Some miracles that can't happen.

Even a Phantasm that agrees with Simplifier 100% on everything she says would be an impossibility. You could try with all your might, you could be Uri Gellar bending the spoon of Phantasm's (nonexistent) free will, but it would never happen. Sorry. Smiley
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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by The Simplifier on Mon Sep 07, 2015 3:09 am

kazoo wrote:
And it just makes the whole process frustrating because it's supposed to be so simple but we can't manage to make it all happen the way we want!  So I get where you're coming from.
 

That's based on guilt and being hard on ourselves. Of course if we are still beating ourselves up for "not making it happen yet", then it's complicated. But the solution is simple, not always getting there... and getting there is very unique for each person and situation.

There are people who have made careers out of complicating it for people, so they are more convinced that it will "work". And you know what? It works for many. We as a society buy into solutions that we earn with hard work or a complex healing process. But, I don't believe that's necessary if the person accepts where they are, forgives himself for not being somewhere else yet, and takes it from there.

Instead of feeling like it has to be complicated, I think it's more important to ask why are we frustrated that it hasn't happened yet? Why are we not enjoying what we have now? That connects directly to the concept of... if you enjoy this moment, it opens the way for what you've been keeping away by noticing it's not there.

I'd encourage anyone to first accept that all things can be simplified. From there, nothing is impossible. Is anything possible if we just look at the mess we've gotten ourselves into and get overwhelmed? Or if we choose all different medications and theories with no relief? That's why in the example Phantasm posted, the person said they tried everything but nothing worked. And look, he even was angry at the physicians who said it would help. We all know enough about LOA to read that clearly. His vibration is not of wellness. If anyone's going to say well yeah his experiences give him proof enough for him to feel that way... but do we in this community choose our feelings based on the evidence around us or based on what we prefer? Forget depression for a moment and let's ask... aren't we the ones who understand that the reality we create in our minds is the one that manifests?

Because that's the Truth.
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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by Phantasm on Mon Sep 07, 2015 3:14 am

The Simplifier wrote:
kazoo wrote:
And it just makes the whole process frustrating because it's supposed to be so simple but we can't manage to make it all happen the way we want!  So I get where you're coming from.
 

That's based on guilt and being hard on ourselves. Of course if we are still beating ourselves up for "not making it happen yet", then it's complicated. But the solution is simple, not always getting there... and getting there is very unique for each person and situation.

There are people who have made careers out of complicating it for people, so they are more convinced that it will "work". And you know what? It works for many. We as a society buy into solutions that we earn with hard work or a complex healing process. But, I don't believe that's necessary if the person accepts where they are, forgives himself for not being somewhere else yet, and takes it from there.

Instead of feeling like it has to be complicated, I think it's more important to ask why are we frustrated that it hasn't happened yet? Why are we not enjoying what we have now? That connects directly to the concept of... if you enjoy this moment, it opens the way for what you've been keeping away by noticing it's not there.

Well I mean that's the thing. As the lovely kazoo is pointing out, we get frustrated because things don't happen. But often the things don't happen because we get frustrated. If we were in an allowing state of mind in the first place there would be no need to get frustrated.... etc.

But as I say some things aren't possible, no matter what.
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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by The Simplifier on Mon Sep 07, 2015 3:22 am

Ah, but I am not trying to convince you. I write for my own good because it reinstates my own practical knowledge and reminds me that these are my truths. Of course, I hope that some of you reading will get something out of it. Maybe even strengthen your own beliefs that contradict mine because what I write sounds silly to you and reaffirms your own perspective.

Wink

As for nothing bring impossible, that's a bunch of fluff because nothing means... what? This wise statement gets taken in a way where people start proving why this or that is not possible. It's not possible to reverse gravity. It's not possible for me to be with this person. It's not possible for me to believe in God Wink

But the point (I think) behind that is, if it serves no purpose other than to prove the statement false, why would anyone want to manifest those things? Why would I want uou yo believe in God? If you are perfectly happy without believing in God, then I say I am happy for you. If some person 'fails' to be with someone, then who's to say that's not for the best? And why would anyone want to reverse gravity? Just to fight law? What purpose does that serve except bragging rights for the ego that wants to prove it? Sometimes we get caugh up in the magic of manifesting and we forget that meaning and purpose are kind of essential to creation.
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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by Phantasm on Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:20 am

The Simplifier wrote:All is pure LOA, so our unique perspectives are all valid

Ah, but my unique perspective is that all is not pure LOA. Does that not bend my reality somewhat? Although of course it can only bend if the statement that all is pure LOA is true. If it isn't maybe my reality won't bend.

If "pure LOA" is true, Phanty's perspective changes the world
Phanty's perspective is that pure LOA is not true...therefore his perspective doesn't change the world...



though lol someone's obviously changed my world because I'm starting to get so used to being called Phanty that you've tricked my mind into using it too.

I did a google image search so I could make some snarky comment about the name Phanty
And this is what "Phanty" fetched:



So if we have any straw man argument at any stage we might want to call it a stuffed animal argument. They talk of the quest for the white elephant but how about blue ones? lol

The Simplifier wrote:To know that something is painful, and to know you want it to be over, is instrumental. Where does the depressed person differ from someone with a healthier current state of being? He knows it's painful, says I want relief, then stays in the asking state. So, relief cannot come.

It seems to me we're still getting stuck in the same place. You said yourself that the irony of depression is that when you're there you can't see the light enough to change your beliefs. Let me remind you:

The Simplifier wrote:The irony of depression is that we do have the choice to heal and since we are not connected to source during that time like we would be when we are seeing clearly we do not believe it

...so when someone even merely suggests that it is possible to not be depressed, we are hurt and use that as an excuse to feel even worse.  How dare anyone suggest I want this for myself?  Obviously I don't want it, how stupid do they think I am?  Who would choose this?"  And that's if they are even capable in that moment of caring enough to think those things... more likely they get into bed and shut it all out.

You acknowledge yourself that in that dark place we may even have trouble thinking something like "how dare they", that we may instead just curl into a ball and shut the world out.

You say "if they are even capable in that moment of caring. Depression is by its very definition an extended period of such moments. So what you yourself are basically saying is that they are not capable to change. But in your latest post and elsewhere you say the depressed person is responsible, responsible for staying in the asking state, responsible for their own thoughts and feelings. It doesn't add up.


The Simplifier wrote:The longer he stays in the asking place, the more 'solidified' the habit becomes, and depression ensues. If this is understood earlier on, depression can be prevented.


I.e. prevention is better than the cure...because the cure is often impossible, at least it is usually nearly so.

The Simplifier wrote:So, as compassionate as it may be to "save" clinically depressed people, it is, in my opinion, a more effective approach to address the mental process before it has a chance to spiral into depression as we know it.

I do agree of course but how are you going to "catch" these people before they become depressed? As we both know depression can be an invisible illness. Usually people who get depressed don't realise they are even spiralling in that direction.

If there was more public awareness of depression maybe we could help. But the common attitude remains, oh, take responsibility for your own feelings for God's sake!! Do you really think that is helpful?

From the book Depression and Globalization: The Politics of Mental Health in the 21st Century by Carl Walker:

For many people with depression, feelings of personal stigma are so pervasive that they are an inherent part of the experience and to tell another person that you are suffering from depression carries the fear of evoking feelings in others that
range from confusion to distrust and disgust. For many, depression is quite simply
not an illness and many fail to understand why others cannot just ‘pull themselves
together’ or ‘snap out of it’.

For my own part, this makes about as much sense as telling a diabetic to snap out of a diabetic coma or telling en epileptic to snap out of his fit. Hardly appropriate behaviour but many people close to depressives tell them exactly this. Because of centuries of failing to understand the illness and a social and political perspective that has ran counter to the development of empathy for people with mood disorders, feelings of embarrassment, shame and self-disgust are rife within sufferers.


(The PDF of the chapter this is excerpted from available here)

The Simplifier wrote:Depression doesn't control a person. It doesn't cause the chemical imbalance. The chemical imbalance caused by chronic thoughts, in turn causes what we call depression.

Chickens and eggs, ma'am. I think really you're creating a logical disconnect here. The chemical imbalance is caused by chronic thoughts but the chronic thoughts are also caused by a chemical imbalance.

If they are already feeling depressed and the people around them are saying that's bs, you're just lazy- it is still their choice to accept that or not. Yes, the more solidified the habit is, the more likely they will choose to accept negative suggestions over positive.

In my next post I want to start us talking about habit, but not here.
Ok, you're saying someone is already depressed, therefore has already spiralled beyond easily getting out of it. And then you're saying that depression snowballs and snowballs. Sure, yes, of course. But I'd say that even in the early stages "feeling better" is generally not a choice available to the depression sufferer. If it were, they would simply feel better. What's to stop them, really?

You say depression doesn't control a person. I say it does. This is where we differ. You actually acknowledge it yourself in your earlier post; the person is incapable of thinking better thoughts. This is why I say they aren't responsible.

Night eyes puts it brilliantly:

Night Eyes wrote:thoughts are often involuntary, so can we actually change them? we all get awful thoughts whether we want them or not, they just 'pop in' its the same with anxiety and other mental health issues (which i have personally found all interact with depression, depression doesn't usually turn up on it it's own, it brings friends).... they're just there...

No, you don't choose to have ugly thoughts. Why would you? You don't choose to be unhappy any more than someone who has cancer chooses to have cancer. Of course LOA states that the cancer must be the patient's fault in any case, that they attracted it. Let's forget that for a moment though, even though I find this blaming the victim business deeply problematic.

It's all basically summed up here, our difference of opinion.



What we're basically talking about is making a cognitive shift from a place where it's impossible to make a cognitive shift. You yourself admit that it's impossible to think other thoughts in that drk place. Yes, I get what you said earlier about gradual changes. But sometimes people are so "caught" they keep falling back in. They get a little better and then a lot worse. The human mind doesn't work just like clockwork. You don't start winding it one way to have it magically keep winding. It's a labyrinth, and simplified or not, in any depressive patient it isn't an easy thing to control. In most cases, most times, most places, it is an impossible thing to control.


......which also brings me back to what I say about free will, here: http://lecafe.forumotion.com/t128-free-will
Though of course no one bothered to even read it. Very Happy

I'll leave the closing word here to Sam Harris, who in my opinion is a genius, and also sounds uncannily like Night Eyes Very Happy

"Thoughts and intentions simply arise. What else could they do?"

* * *
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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by Phantasm on Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:29 am

The Simplifier wrote:Ah, but I am not trying to convince you.

As for nothing bring impossible...

[...]

If it serves no purpose other than to prove the statement false, why would anyone want to manifest those things?

lol I'm sorry but this is a pure cop-out! Let's say you did want to manifest these things. Could you?

Nope. Very Happy
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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by Phantasm on Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:43 am

kazoo wrote:Phantasm, a few things...

You know, we here have discussed the LoA gurus, teachers, whatever you want to call them a bunch of times and there are opinions like yours.  Some find fault that they haven't reached an "elite level of success" (however they define that...) and some might think that it's fine to be rich and talk about LoA as long as your wealth came from some other source.  I honestly don't mind if people find their success in spreading the word about LoA.  That doesn't necessarily tarnish them in my eyes.

I'm not a huge fan of the Hicks.  The gimmicky catch phrases annoy me most of the time, but I recognize that many people are fans and resonate with how Abe explains the concepts.  Rhonda Byrne takes some crap too, but I give her a lot of credit for introducing LoA to the masses.  Each teacher can make their contributions in their own way and articulates in their own way and I don't have a problem with it.  Just because it's not exactly the right fit for me doesn't mean it hasn't helped someone else.  And that's all that matters is that people are being helped.

Now, as far as what you have been writing about depression.  Well, I think you certainly posted it on the right thread because what you are writing is so full of limiting beliefs!  That's ok, because I agree with so much of what you've said and I think you've probably seen a similar sentiment in a lot of my recent points where the main point is "it's not that simple."  And it's why I've been so hung up on all of the people who try to apply LoA in their lives and end up failing to get what they want.

Of course we will be told over and over again that it is indeed that simple.  And we can understand that on an intellectual level.  But putting it all into practice can be a whole different matter.  And it just makes the whole process frustrating because it's supposed to be so simple but we can't manage to make it all happen the way we want!  So I get where you're coming from.
 

Thanks kazoo, you're very sweet. We probably have very similar views of the Hicks' then, though unlike you I don't agree with everything they say.

A lot of "Abraham" stuff I've listened to or read I think is essentially brilliant (the message not the messenger), but there are other things that I'm just like, really? ...and they do also sometimes contradict themselves... and make up things to cover their own illogic... etc. But yeah, as you say, it's okay if they actually do benefit people.

I've heard of cases of LOA becoming ugly, though, where people who believe 300% get themselves stuck in fear and then of course are scared that they'll fear more and manifest their fears... I've read quite a bit from people who got so caught up in LOA that when they actually did come down with cancer, for example, they blamed themselves and made it worse, and yet continued to cling... to say oh if I believe this listen to these CDs buy all this stuff... I'll get better...

I like what you say about LOA being supposedly simple...and yet not simple at all. Smiley I still believe there are many things even the greatest LOA gurus would not be able to solve. You can talk your way out of some things but at the end of the day, what we call the LOA is a mass of different beliefs about how the universe works; different people say different things; if things don't work out various different explanations are offered; but all viewpoints are probably as useful as each other.

Doesn't make them all true though. Sometimes a spade is just a spade, and you didn't "attract" it, you just went to the fucking store and bought it.

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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by Phantasm on Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:46 am

lunareclipse wrote:
Phantasm wrote:
Are you really, seriously telling me that if I just believed, and this belief somehow was aligned to the superconscious/collective unconscious...that I could attract Elsa Hosk into my life? That I could be the guy on the right?

If you moved to Northern or North-Eastern Europe, you could easily attract someone who looks exactly like her.

Thanks for the thought lol. But there is Murphy's Law as well as LOA. I'm sure there are as many buff Scandinavian males as there are Elsa Hosk lookalikes and so all the cute girls would already be snapped up.



Anyway, I ought to be able to attract Elsa Hosk herself, no? Twisted Evil
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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by lunareclipse on Mon Sep 07, 2015 5:39 am

Since I have attracted celebrities before, I actually do believe that it is possible for you to attract particularly her, BUT your first statement shows that your belief system is nowhere near that yet.

I'm personally originally from Estonia but I have been around Scandinavia plenty enough to guarantee that the ratio of hot women to pumped Scandinavian hunks is about 10:1. Majority of people are fair haired and blue eyed, there is not one person with brown eyes in my whole ancestry. I'm slim and 5'11and half and I was maybe 7th tallest girl in my class, so Elsa would be pretty common where I come from. Besides you have something else on your side- originality. The guys in Estonia for example are not attractive and many are alcoholics, even better- there are way more women than men in Estonia altogether, so I have seen plenty of poor ugly old black dudes show up and get a super hot girlfriend just for the fact that they are original and different.

So now that I have told you the truth- perhaps your belief system has shifted a tad towards the possibility of being the next Seal? Although I'm sure you look better than that.
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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by Guest on Mon Sep 07, 2015 5:58 am

lunareclipse wrote:I'm personally originally from Estonia but I have been around Scandinavia plenty enough to guarantee that the ratio of hot women to pumped Scandinavian hunks is about 10:1.

*moans* And to think I was thinking about moving to Scandinavia to find myself a nice guy with a Swedish accent! Or Finnish...  or Danish...   also Estonia sounds nice...   I think I read in an in-flight magazine that Finland is particularly single-friendly...



Honestly, this is something that seems to crop up everywhere though, wherever I go the decent, intelligent, good-looking, fun, kind, well-off men seem to be one in...what am I talking about, a 10:1 nice girls/hot guys ratio would be great, for me though when I look at guys...it's more that I like 1 in a 100*...and for me even if all the "criteria" are met it still is very, very rare for me to actually fall head over heels in love, and that's the no. 1 criteria for me for finding a mate. I know I've had my own hideously limiting beliefs in this area, if I hadn't I wouldn't be where I am now. I was lucky enough to experience the kind of love some people probably only dream of, but my fears and negativity overpowered that.

But then, if I hadn't had those limiting beliefs I also wouldn't have met any of you, so I suppose everything bad is good for something. I love you

*Edit: Except Germany, come to think of it. I was once touring to Germany with an orchestra and the guys in the German orchestra... *all* of them were hot Very Happy *and* double-majoring in aeroneutical engineering! Literally rocket scientists! Laughing

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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by Night Eyes on Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:01 am

Ok.. here i go... sorry if it's a Tangent

Ok so we all have these perspectives here... there's beliefs.. we're in control of depression... we're not in control of depression.. we can change... we can't etc

So let's progress this conversation to the next level

What can we actually do?

I'm Pretty Sure Armine will be able to give a much better explanation for the Loa techniques in what we can do so i'll leave that area alone Smiley

There is plenty we can do for mental health, even if we feel we're not in control of it, or we didn't ask for it... the same as any illness there are things that can be done to fight back or work through and Heal. Thats the difference and perhaps what's getting missed here... regardless of if we chose it or not.. we have a choice as to what we want to do about it... easy or not.. let's face it... it's not going to be easy when you're that low, it's going to be a hard long road.

Ok so we have medication, not my preferable choice as to me it 'papers over the cracks' but some find it helps to elevate the mood, to get you into a place to move forward.

But this is where the work starts, there are many different forms of therapy and self help available

You have your NLP..... for limiting beliefs we can look at the Dickens Model, at what these beliefs Have, are and Will cost you, Physically, Emotionaly and Spiritually... or create a Timeline allowing your future self that is free of these beliefs to talk to your present self.

We have your C.B.T therapies, to name but a few things, you can Journal your thoughts and reactions and progress.. what did i do today? how did it make me feel? what can i do differently? how did that make me feel?

Point out all the achievements you made that day, even if it was just getting out of bed and making a cup of tea, to someone depressed thats an achievment.. next step.. get dressed..... and on it goes building momentum

You can simply write your emotions and your feelings down, write a letter to yourself, or someone who may be involved

You can use creative therapies.. Art, Music, Craft, anything that floats your boat

You can use talking therapies and get to the root of what is making you so low, challenge your beliefs, use Socratic questioning to get to the core of your beliefs and values and understand what it was that brought you to this stage in your life, where you would like to go, whats holding you back, what in the here and now would make life better for you.

You can research and understand your illness.... with a lot of mental health issues.... Knowledge is power, when you know what it's doing and how it works.... you've taken the power from it and given some, even if it's small.. back to yourself

A lot of things that make us low and make us feel like shit, are based on fear of the future or living in the past

Anxiety..... constant worrying about what's going to happen, when it will happen, how it will happen, how will you cope, how will you get through it, what if what if what if... i read something the other day that describes Anxiety perfectly.... that feeling you get when you miss a step coming down the stairs? its that feeling over and over again, so what do you do? you look at what you're scared of.... you practice a bit of mindfulness, you do some deep focusing on the breath, you ask yourself what other ways can i look at this?

Depression.. constantly being tortured by your past, constantly feeling low and miserable.. self- loathing, feelings of inadequacy...despair... the sunshine gone from life... now i am no expert on depression, but i'll bet my bottom dollar it has a lot to do with working on self-esteem and confidence and letting go of the past.

Of course these are just 2 ways our mental health can be affected.. there's plenty more but i wont pretend i have any expert knowledge on them at all

but OCD, another one that's lacking in awareness, constantly terrified and bullied by your own mind, ok so we know we have good thoughts, bad thoughts, in between mediocre thoughts, and meaningless couldnt give a shit thoughts... well OCD is very happy to make a person latch on to each and every shitty little thought that so much as passes through their mind, leaving them in a constant state of panic and distress... and in full belief that every single thought they have is true, to the point they get Brainlock and perform rituals and compulsions to alleviate the anxiety

It has one of the hardest but most effective C.B.T therapies to help it, the person just has to expose themselves to the fear, to allow the thought to just be like any other normal thought, sit through the anxiety until it minimises.


anyways.. i'm not even sure what point i'm making here, just that... yes i agree with Phanty in the sense .. this isn't like a cold, or breaking your leg... that person gets accepted and understood as they know it's going to heal and get better.. it's a physical illness that people can see and understand

Mental Health can be an ass... pure and simple.. that person also has to face the fear that this could be a lifelong battle


Personally from my own experience, and what makes me happy, is i see correlations within therapies to Spirituality, it's like we're all in the same place working to the same outcome, we're just doing it differently.

And one last note... i truly believe that if we can find our own happiness and peace within, show ourselves a bit of TLC learn to love ourselves for who we are, and accept ourselves warts and all... we're halfway there.

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Re: Limiting Beliefs

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