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• Neville's Teachings
• Manifesting through the Law of Giving / Recieving
• "Build it and it will come"
• 7 day manifestation experiment
• Limiting Beliefs
• "Attachment" and "Letting Go"
• On Suffering and Avoiding (Spira)
• What are you grateful for today?
• Procrastination and Laziness
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Limiting Beliefs

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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by Lotus ♥ on Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:53 pm

Hi Rodan; thanks for your quick reply; mine will be even quicker.


- Rodan has no control over my thoughts. The,  I ( inner being ) does.
- Drop the " rodan mask ", let go, and allow the inner being to manifest that which it wants, what it needs, what it desires.
- one can either accept it, and let inner being provide, when one steps out of the way of inner being.
Alright. From your direct and actual experience, what is that mysterious "inner being" that has control over your thoughts, or has desires other than yours, or "provides" when you get out of the way? How did you know that, any of that? Again stick to your direct experience. Thoughts just "pop" into your mind, right? This and only this is what you "experience." You don't experience "another" controlling your thoughts, do you?

Everything apart from your direct experience—names, labels, concepts, interpretations, theories, stories—comes only from the deluded or confused "mind" and therefore only hides the truth. So now because you listened to your mind, you turned your very sense of Being, the I-principle, into "another entity." You call it "Inner Being," or "Higher Self." You simply took Rodan out of the way, which is great, but then assumed "another" being, another separate entity, still doing the job—controlling your thoughts for example. No, man; there is absolutely NOTHING in the WHOLE UNIVERSE but YOU and YOU ALONE—Consciousness.

But take it step by step: What do you actually have in your experience? As we said before, you know only one thing for certain: that you exist. That you are. You have no name or shape or "story" whatsoever; at this moment you just ARE. That's all you have in your experience, right? Stick to this and only this.


The Universe already knows what the " I , inner being "  needs.
What does this sentence mean? You first have Rodan, who will hopefully let go, and then the "inner being" who needs something, and then finally the "universe" who knows what the "inner being" needs? Where did you get these "three" from? Does ANY of that or those actually exist in your experience?

As you can easily see, this is just another "theory" or "model" or "explanation" that your mind provided. You then took it and "superimposed" it on Reality, on your actual and direct experience, thus only hid and obscured the truth. Yet the truth is very clear and simple: YOU ARE. PERIOD.

_________________________

Please "establish" yourself in this first. Don't go any further. Just get used to the idea that you are not really Rodan, that this "story" is not really yours but only your body's and your mind's, and that the only truth you find in your actual experience—prior to all perceptions, all thoughts and all feelings; prior to all stories and all "mental layers" of conceptualization, theorization and explanation—is that you ARE. No gods. No people. No universe. No high self. You just are.

Yet again, dear Rodan, this stuff is against ALL that we've learned and thought and been conditioned and programmed our whole life to believe. It's not "hard" or "deep," but just too unusual; so bizarre it may even sound nonsensical or insane. What could be more insane than denying that you are Rodan, for example, or claiming that you were never born? Very Happy So please feel free to change the subject whenever you want to. Quite honestly I have absolutely no problem with that at all.

Truth is not difficult, but it's not cheap either. This Goddess is rather the highest, most-veiled and most glorious of all goddesses. To be even admitted in her temple, let alone have a glimpse of the Holy Face, you first have to be dying to know the truth or to find out who you really are. Otherwise we won't really go very far with this dialog.



In the movie, the matrix, the characters were able to leave the matrix before losing their physical body.  Then, again, could that be an illusion, too?  Maybe not the movie's version of the matrix, but, maybe ours?
I'm not sure what you mean in this part, Rodan. But speaking of the "physical body," this is definitely the first problem. We ALL identify with the body. There is a special "link" between Consciousness, the infinite and eternal, and this particular, finite body. When someone hits you, for example, you feel it in your body. If they hit me, you don't feel it. That's why we are confused; we simply take ourselves to be the body, or at best "in" the body.

But this link itself is only in your mind. Actually the whole body is a product of the mind. You first start as a "thought" of individuality, and because of this thought you manifest a body to which you necessarily seem to be linked, and in which, limited. But you're neither. That's why in the most advanced levels of Yoga, for example, you literally become omnipresent. You can "link" with any body and any mind anywhere in the world. You can even link with any animal, bird, tree or flower. And you can equally unlink with this particular body you currently seem to be "confined" within.

Do you know how Jesus was both man and god in Christian Theology? God the Christ was like the TV transmission, everywhere, while Jesus the man was like a TV set. So God never died when "the man" died on the Cross. God can't die, simply. It was just the TV set (the body) that stopped temporarily; the Transmission itself lived on and never ceased. It's exactly the same here: the body is only the temporary and finite TV set; you on the other hand are not this particular "image" on this particular TV screen, rather the infinite and eternal transmission everywhere, only temporarily received and seen on this particular screen.
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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by rodan on Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:30 pm

@Lotus:

There was a couple of items I posted you referenced I have no idea why I posted them. I can't remember where my thoughts were when I wrote them.  

I noticed I did that in my last two long posts.  

Anyway, for some reason, I am hung up on trying to understand what works through my physical mind.  

If there is no consciousness, no awareness, no Higher Self, etc., then, I just don't know what there is. I throw my hands up in the air in a state of confusion on the matter.

Probably what I need to do is give my mind a rest from trying to understand what consciousness is and how it plays a roll in my life.  Give it some rest, and try to go at it again when I'm lest confused about the subject.

I think I am so close to understanding, yet, so far away, if that makes any sense.

You posted a couple of other authors in one of your very recent posts. I'm going to read some info on them, and, like I said before, will replay a couple of those Rupert Spira videos, which I have already started on.
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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by Lotus ♥ on Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:34 pm

I never said "there is no consciousness" but it's okay, Rodan; don't "throw your hands up in the air." Very Happy Also don't "surpass" yourself. Truth is not to be understood, through only the mind, but to be realized, on all levels including your being. A great sage, Ramana Maharshi, once said, "To know God is to be God." So it's not a matter of "intelligence" or even "Knowledge;" it involves even your being. I'd like to say "when your time comes you'll get there," but even this is quite improper, because it implies that you're "behind" someone else, or that they're surpassing you, and this is totally incorrect. No one is surpassing anyone else and no one is any "better" or "higher" than anyone else. We each are on our different paths and routs heading for the same destination in the end. Just because your Soul chose a different journey, or what seems to be a longer path, doesn't mean you're behind anyone, or by any means imply their superiority. So first of all please stay in peace; it's perfectly okay to pause to at least have a break.


Secondly, most Buddhist temples, at least in Japan, have two gigantic, fierce and demon-like figures standing at either side of the entrance. Do you know what they call them? These are the Guardians of Truth; their names: Paradox and Confusion. Smiley

So it's quite natural and even expected that you feel confused. That's why we first need to be fully dedicated, almost dying to find out the truth and to wake up from this long dream. Only then, by virtue of such dedication and persistence, will be able to endure those Guardians and do whatever it takes to finally come out free. That's also why I personally think you've been doing rather great, Rodan. You've been advancing, albeit slowly, without any experience, exercises, techniques, meditations or guru. The problem is, it's not really truth or awakening or liberation that you are after. You were only inquiring about Jesus, Buddha and the likes, and with your eyes on their astonishing "miracles," your only hope was to find out their "secret," or perhaps a "shortcut" for the Law to work more effectively or more quickly in your life.

So I think truth, or awakening, is not really your business yet, Rodan. I don't know. But it seems you, like most people, are not yet "troubled" by all those illusions, or by all those evils, or by all those contradictions, or by the underlying absurdity and meaninglessness of your life. You're not yet troubled by the "bondage" you are in, or even aware that you are a slave and are literally in a prison. Spirituality, truly, are for those who have been in "hell." Perhaps it's their deep and long suffering that finally gives them their power and endurance on the road to liberation?



Yet, as I said in the beginning, we should be mindful not to "judge" anyone's journey or path or the "character" they're playing in this grand show. After all it's only a show, a play, and these all are only "masks" and "appearances." Some "act out" the gurus while others, the disciples. Some only seem to be the sages; others, the fools. In the end, however, the Light behind all and in all is one and the same.

Enjoy the ride my friend and see you soon. Smiley
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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by rodan on Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:53 am

@Lotus;

I just need a break from trying to understand what consciousness is. And, BTW,..Higher Self, awareness, consciousness, it all means the same thing to me. I use these terms interchangeably.

I need to practice the basics first, get rather fluent in those. ( meditation and self hypnosis ). When I can go inwards, in a relaxed state, awareness will become my friend.

I'll still be here, just may not be posting on this particular subject.



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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by Desideratum on Tue Nov 10, 2015 10:21 pm

@Lotus

Interesting conversation .... I resonate highly with what you've been saying. There is definitely freedom to be found in letting go of the desires of the ego/self. Or , better stated, letting go of the desireER itself.  Rodan asked one question that I want to pose again, and see what your answer would be.

You said: “However, once you "drop" the whole idea of control, you paradoxically become in control—although you may not recognize it then as such. The reason is, the very concept of control, the very urge to control anything at all, basically comes from your identification with a limited character or ego called Rodan.”

Rodan asked: So, by giving up control, become passive, “ allowing “ whatever the inner awareness truly is,  permit awareness to take over?


I would like to add to that: Do you mean to ultimately let go of the desires of the mind? If this were in the "spirituality" thread I would assume that is what you were talking about, you mentioned Maharshi, for instance, who said "to know god is to be god." The problem for me and most people is that, despite my understanding of non-duality and the like, I am not in the same state of awakening that Maharshi was. Its difficult to accept the notion of just walking away from my desires as a means to freedom. Since this is the LOA section I wondered if there was a connection there you could elaborate more on.

Thanks.

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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by Lotus ♥ on Wed Nov 11, 2015 4:30 pm

Hi Desideratum. Glad to see you again so welcome aboard, and thanks for your comment.

Interesting conversation .... I resonate highly with what you've been saying. There is definitely freedom to be found in letting go of the desires of the ego/self. Or, better stated, letting go of the desireER itself.
Exactly. It's letting go of the desire-er. However, I meant only the notion of "control" in that part, not the subject of "desire" in general. And my intention in that preliminary stage was to only shake a little or "unsettle" the stability of the ego, through exposing the falsity of such beliefs the ego usually takes for granted or as self-evident.
  

Rodan asked one question that I want to pose again, and see what your answer would be.

You said: “However, once you "drop" the whole idea of control, you paradoxically become in control—although you may not recognize it then as such. The reason is, the very concept of control, the very urge to control anything at all, basically comes from your identification with a limited character or ego called Rodan.”

Rodan asked: So, by giving up control, become passive, “ allowing “ whatever the inner awareness truly is,  permit awareness to take over?

I would like to add to that: Do you mean to ultimately let go of the desires of the mind?
If the desires are "of the mind," as you rightly just said, what do they have to do with YOU in the first place? Why ever "hold on" to those desires and now think you should instead "let go" of them?

Letting go of the desires (in the sense of "pushing them away" or "forcing" oneself to stop desiring) is just like holding on to the desires. These are two faces of the same coin. Both attitudes or positions only reveal your "misidentification," and only indicate your "involvement" and "attachment" to the mind (or the desirer), and therefore it really never works this way. So the point here is to first realize that you, indeed, have no desire whatsoever. When you truly realize this—for example by maintaining the "Observer" position, over both the mind and body, instead of unconsciously "identifying" as both or either—most of these desires will then gradually fade out on their own (because most of these desires were actually meant to affirm the "desirer.") But even if they didn't there would be no problem, because either way you'd be no longer "attached" to the "outcome."
  

you mentioned Maharshi, for instance, who said "to know god is to be god." The problem for me and most people is that, despite my understanding of non-duality and the like, I am not in the same state of awakening that Maharshi was.
This thought itself, that "you are not in the same state of awakening that Maharshi was," is the problem. WHO thinks so? WHO has this thought? See the point?
 
Most people are not "gods." They are "men" who want to be "gods." And they want to be there, as men, to enjoy being gods. Very Happy But obviously this is contradictory. Does a lion "enjoy" not being a sheep? Does he "strive" to never be a sheep, or "aspire" for that? Does he ever even think about it? No. Why? Because he is a lion, from the start a lion, all along a lion. It's only a "sheep" that may have any of these thoughts or undertake any of such endeavors. Similarly, you are already the Maharshi. You are already the Buddha. You are already the Christ. Right now and here you are already and LITERALLY the eternal and infinite Consciousness holding the whole universe together. The very thought "I'm not in the same state of awakening that Maharshi was" only veils this glaring truth; only revives and perpetuates the "Desideratum" you are not. It's Desideratum, you are not, who may entertain such a thought; never the Maharshi you already are.  
 

Its difficult to accept the notion of just walking away from my desires as a means to freedom. Since this is the LOA section I wondered if there was a connection there you could elaborate more on.
First of all desires are rather important. They are the fuel of life, and they are essential for any human activity to ever start let alone continue. It's still our desires that drive us even to this or that "spiritual" path and keep pushing us forward to awake or realize the truth that would finally liberate us.
 
So even "spiritually" speaking, the problem is not the desire. The problem is that you believe this is "your" desire, not a product or a state of the "mind." Satisfying the mind's desire, therefore, has become your own satisfaction, and you thus feel happy when the desire is fulfilled or miserable if not. So don't "walk away" from your desires, but just look closely: are they really "YOUR" desires? Aren't they only mental or bodily states, arising in response to your environment, or conditioning, or upbringing, or the chemicals in your brain, or perhaps even the current positions of the stars and how they relate to your birth sign? If you're neither the body nor the mind, what does any of this really have to do with you?
 
Maharshi was once asked: Is it bad to desire something?

He answered: One should not be elated on having his desire fulfilled or disappointed on being frustrated. To be elated on the fulfillment of desire is so deceitful. A gain will certainly be lost ultimately. Therefore elation must end in pain at a future date. One should not give place to feelings of pleasure or pain, come what may. How do the events affect the person? You do not grow by acquiring something nor wither away by losing it. You remain what you always are.

Q.: We worldly men cannot resist desire.

M.: You may desire but be prepared for any eventuality. Make effort, but do not be lost in the result. Accept with equanimity whatever happens. For pleasure and pain are mere mental modes. They have no relation to the objective realities.


 
So you may freely desire, whatever you may. But to break your "attachment" to the outcome, first establish yourself at least in the Observer position. When you go to the doctor for example because of some pain in your, say, knee, who explains the problem to the doctor? It's not the "sufferer," because this only "suffers." So obviously there is still a higher level here, that's of the "knower." This is who you are, the Knower; never the sufferer but rather the knower of every suffering, and of every experience.

So keep, at least, in this knower or as we commonly call it Observer position. That is, acknowledge and keep fully and constantly aware that this desire in your mind is just like the sensation of hunger in your body. They both are mere reactions to whatever state this body-mind construct may happen to be in, they both just "move" this body-mind construct (not you) to act a certain way, and last but not least, they both have absolutely nothing to do with YOU or your natural and permanent state of serenity, peace and bless.
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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by Desideratum on Wed Nov 11, 2015 6:22 pm

Hello Lotus,

Thanks for the reply. Yes, I fully understand that the desires are not truly mine, but rather appear from nowhere and occupy the desireER. As with most people, however, a strong desire seems to kill all the space between me and it, and results in suffering when not attained.

Hence my coming to learn about LOA. One can use LOA to manifest desires in this world even while being totally attached, I have done so, many have done so. As you point out, when one does lose the attachment to a desire, what usually happens is that it floats away, eventually out of sight (mind) and is forgotten.

My interests seem to be split. I am not exactly greedy, but alas, I am not prepared to live with nothing to my name but a diaper and a stick, like Ramana Maharshi. His acolyte, Papaji, once said "if you have a desire, do not pick it up, it may burn you." Problem is, I kind of have to pick some of them up.

I am in a change of work situation, for example, and must come out the other side gainfully employed. Otherwise, well, I am in trouble. I have a long-running personal life situation as well, but am at the cusp of walking away from that one. A year of trying create something via LOA has failed, at least observably, so I am rethinking things.

Anyway, these are two different subjects, then... one being using LOA to manifest desires, the other the goal of freedom and realization of who I am in truth.

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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by Lotus ♥ on Wed Nov 11, 2015 8:44 pm

Good luck in your journey, Desideratum. I had a similar "split" situation for some time, but then I found out, through both study and experience, that the contradiction or the gap is not really that large as it usually appears. For example, to me LOA belongs to the realm of magic. However, the deeper foundation and truths of magic are actually the same of spirituality. This is especially clear in the case of Neville for example and what makes him so special.

But it goes even beyond that: For instance, most of the wealthy (billionaires) I had the chance to observe and deal directly with practice "detachment" in the full sense of the word without even knowing it or having ever heard of Buddha or Maharshi. They never "attach" to the money, rather "view" it and "handle" it, albeit subconsciously, as a kind of "energy" that should be always circulating out there in the world. They practically look as if "throwing" their money here and there, including to charity, without much "care" about it, but then as if by magic, the money comes back again and keeps coming back, sometimes doubled. They even believe, still subconsciously, that money is "infinite"—which is very true, beyond the dream of even philosophy. So why for example spend at least $15,000 on a handmade pair of shoes from Lobb when you can get a great pair from Prada or even Testoni for only $1,000 and give $14,000 to the needy? Their logic is surprisingly simple: Because I deserve a pair from Lobb; because absolutely nothing in the world is like the experience of these shoes warmly wrapping your feet; and because I can have a Lobb and still give $14,000 to the needy. Just let's "move" some more money (which means spend not save) for still more to manifest and do both (that is, manifest from the endless ocean of money).

Thus all in all, speaking of attachment, I've never found more and deeper "attachment," "clinging," "tightening" of the grips, lust for "control," "fear" and "worry" than I have among the both ignorant and poor. Because they're ignorant of the Two Worlds—the truly material and the truly spiritual/magical—they're the only ones who may have such pathetic tendencies and miserable thoughts, not only of attachment or fear or worry but also of greed, envy or even hatred sometimes. Also because they're ignorant, they're the ones who believe that these two worlds are split, or contradictory, or each subject to a different set of laws; and they're the ones who reproduce and continually affirm these beliefs in the culture, the media, the movies, etc. But these two worlds are indeed one, always hiding the same deeper truths and subject to the same laws and rules, regardless of the different "labels" we may attach to them.


Thanks Desideratum; again wishing you all the best and have a good night.
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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by Desideratum on Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:57 pm

Its not a conflict, per se, which I think you are saying as well. Like you point out, successful people naturally think of the universe as abundant. Even if stricken down, they rise back up, fortified with the subconscious belief that they are a successful person, and rebuild as needed. Poor, unsuccessful people deal with the opposite subconscious beliefs, as you pointed out.

Then there are those who learn about LOA and put the intentional use of it to work to change their subconscious beliefs. As they get more and more adept, they can transform from the poor minded to the success minded, using their new faith in either themselves, or LOA, or whatever, to change their physical reality.

I'm just paraphrasing what you said.

The notion that letting go of a desire as a means to bring it into fruition is a common one in LOA circles. I don't see it working that way. Again, I think you also said that. But, the letting go process can, and does result in people releasing doubt and fear, etc. which reinforce the LACK. Once that is let go, things flow a lot better and faster. Maybe the desire does not appear, but since the attachment is gone (or mostly gone) the associated suffering is gone.

Or the desire might appear if it was just a matter of releasing said doubts.

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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by Lotus ♥ on Fri Nov 13, 2015 2:43 pm

That's why I hate this "letting go" topic, Desideratum. Very Happy

There are two schools concerning this point, as I wrote before elsewhere; please let me know if you're interested. For now I'd rather say that all flavors are available. Very Happy Some people let go and their desires manifest; others let go but their desires don't. Some "give up" not only let go and only then their desires manifest; others let go and then give up but their desires still never manifest; yet others neither let go nor give up and their desires manifest. So obviously something is wrong. This scene is very messy and many are therefore confused.

The key however is very simple: Letting go, or giving up, or instead holding on; none of this is the "determinant" factor. Rather, it's the "change" in our mental "template" or "mold," or if you prefer "vibration," that any of these reactions or attitudes may lead to. If that internal change occurred because of, or just simultaneously with, what we call "letting go," or "giving up," or "holding on," the desire then manifests in response to that inner change, not in response to any of these attitudes.

I may therefore let go and my desire immediately manifests; you may do exactly the same but your desire still doesn't. In my case, my letting go brought about the change required—rearranged my energetic matrix, cleared up the channels of force, or simply changed my vibration—and as a result everything fell in place. In your case, however, your letting go didn't bring about the same effect, or brought about the same effect but your energetic template was more complex, or more deeply rooted into your psyche, or so rigid and tenacious it can't easily respond to any new "imprints." Your desire therefore still didn't manifest although you did exactly the same I did. In this context, "giving up" altogether, especially after a long period of visualizing or affirming one's desire, may rather be the last piece required in order to release all energy locked-up. Manifestation may then occur, even rapidly, as this one single "release of frustration" starts a chain reaction or "domino effect" in the system. Some therefore give up and once they do their desire manifest although "giving up" itself is never required or even recommended for any manifestation to take place.


Underlying this whole system, however, is only one simple rule: The "person" who produced this, say, "lack" in his finances, or "disease" in his body, or "loneliness" in his life, CANNOT produce abundance, or health, or love, so long as he is the "same" person. This is impossible. No one can help it; not even God can help it, pray as you may. The lack or the disease or the loneliness in this person's external world is simply the exact and precise "projection" of his internal world. It's this person—this specific construct of energy, this specific arrangement of forces, this specific setting of vibrations—that "echoes" in the external world in the form of lack, or disease, or loneliness. Therefore it's impossible for the "same" person to manifest anything other than just that.

However, because "letting go" usually re-sets and re-tunes the inner mind or template, chances are this "new" person, having let go, will manifest his desire—not because he particularly let go but because now he is a new person. Through letting go he's "transformed;" become a different person with a different template. A different frame in the projector that instantly shows a different movie on the screen. A different frequency within that inevitably initiates a different "resonance" throughout the whole universe without due to the holographic nature of reality. The manifestation of his desire in this case is mathematically certain, exactly as his older lack or disease or loneliness was.

Obviously, there is really no "Higher Self" to take over or "Lower Self" to let go or "Universe" to kindly answer or any of that... just mental noise and distraction. Truth is beautifully simple, and it's only one question to consider: Who are you? Who do you think you are? How do you define yourself? In his gem Your Faith is Your Fortune Neville wrote:

Change your conception of yourself and you will automatically change the world in which you live
... Stop trying to change the world since it is only the mirror. Man's attempt to change the world by force is as fruitless as breaking a mirror in the hope of changing his face. Leave the mirror and change your face. Leave the world alone and change your conceptions of yourself.
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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by Desideratum on Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:47 pm

That's why I hate this "letting go" topic, Desideratum.

Well, you have some clear and insightful observations about it, so I appreciate the conversation.

There are two schools concerning this point, as I wrote before elsewhere; please let me know if you're interested.

If its something that can be helpful in a practical way I would be, yes.

The key however is very simple: Letting go, or giving up, or instead holding on; none of this is the "determinant" factor. Rather, it's the "change" in our mental "template" or "mold," or if you prefer "vibration," that any of these reactions or attitudes may lead to. If that internal change occurred because of, or just simultaneously with, what we call "letting go," or "giving up," or "holding on," the desire then manifests in response to that inner change, not in response to any of these attitudes.

Yes, that makes sense .. a shift in our inner paradigm, to use some fancy LOA jargon.  If the aggregate effect is to loosen the grasp on lack, loss, etc, it can result in new energy flowing in, manifestations that have been blocked now being able to move, etc. Makes sense.

Also, I believe the process of building the belief, subconsciously, that the desired thing is real can have the same effect. The subconscious no longer craves or longs for that it has, or believes it has. The relief of the feelings of lack can be interpreted as letting go. Soon after which the desire may appear in physical reality.

. In your case, however, your letting go didn't bring about the same effect, or brought about the same effect but your energetic template was more complex, or more deeply rooted into your psyche, or so rigid and tenacious it can't easily respond to any new "imprints."

In my life it is true that letting go of things has mostly resulted in them drifting out of my consciousness. I have never had an old relationship re-appear, an old girlfriend suddenly wanting to get back together after I got over her.  That has not happened to me at all. But, once over them, it was fine, I wouldn't have wanted to get back together, I moved on.

My current situation is far more complex. Someone who I have come close to bet never had a real thing with, mostly due to some emotional issues they are dealing with. Although from an LOA standpoint, its all me, my "creation," my manifestation. Lots of hurt feelings, anger, etc. to release, and its not easy to say the least.  

"giving up" altogether, especially after a long period of visualizing or affirming one's desire, may rather be the last piece required in order to release all energy locked-up. Manifestation may then occur, even rapidly, as this one single "release of frustration" starts a chain reaction or "domino effect" in the system.

This could very well be, although my spider sense tells me if/when I give up the situation will drift off out of my life and I will simply move on.  Maybe not, we'll see. I really want to focus on business/career things so I can secure myself better financially. that is another focus I have. Well, we all have.

Some therefore give up and once they do their desire manifest although "giving up" itself is never required or even recommended for any manifestation to take place.

Can you elaborate a little on "giving up" not being recommended? Or are you simply saying that the removal of focus on the manifestation does what is does in every other situation, just takes the energy away, lowering the likelyhood of something changing.

Underlying this whole system, however, is only one simple rule: The "person" who produced this, say, "lack" in his finances, or "disease" in his body, or "loneliness" in his life, CANNOT produce abundance, or health, or love, so long as he is the "same" person.

Perhaps a better way to think of this is rather than the "person" not being able to manifest the change, a "person with these core (subconscious) beliefs" will not be able to change, etc, Would you confirm that?

However, because "letting go" usually re-sets and re-tunes the inner mind or template, chances are this "new" person, having let go, will manifest his desire—not because he particularly let go but because now he is a new person. Through letting go he's "transformed;" become a different person with a different template.

I suppose what defines a person, in the physical world, is what they think, believe, etc. Of course that is not the TRUTH of who a person is, which is none of those things at all, but I know you are speaking from the LOA perspective.

Loved the quote from Neville. He also spoke about "letting go" of the old "you," I am paraphrasing, but he spoke about letting go of the old you and becoming the new you with the new life, etc.

Thanks for the chat.

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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by Lotus ♥ on Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:10 pm

Thanks to you, Desideratum (also thanks to Rodan; hopefully he's fine). These dialogs with you and him and a few others are probably the last strings connecting me with the web in general.
 
If the aggregate effect is to loosen the grasp on lack, loss, etc, it can result in new energy flowing in, manifestations that have been blocked now being able to move, etc.
Very well said.


Also, I believe the process of building the belief, subconsciously, that the desired thing is real can have the same effect. The subconscious no longer craves or longs for that it has, or believes it has. The relief of the feelings of lack can be interpreted as letting go. Soon after which the desire may appear in physical reality.
Yes. But why interpret it as letting go? Letting go is usually understood as either letting go of the desire itself, or letting go only of the outcome—meaning "detachment," or staying "happy either way." But if you believe that the desire is already fulfilled or real as you put it, the whole "letting go" concept or process, in either sense, is no longer present or needed, because there is no "desire" in the first place. If you are, say, wealthy, you won't desire to be wealthy. You already are. These are the two schools or systems I'm talking about (and this is probably the most practical point). In the first system, whose pinnacle and master was definitely Neville, you work on the "I AM" level and your mission is to create a new "self concept," freely as desired. "Letting go" has no place in this scheme. In the second school, however, you don't "transform" on such a deeper level. You're still the same person with a desire to fulfill. As such, you have to put the seed and then "let go" for the higher powers to give you the tree.

So if you're following with Neville or the first school in general, you don't even have a desire. You are already that you want to be. You are here working on Consciousness itself, where knowing and being are literally the same thing. If you know you are say wealthy, then you are wealthy, that's it—and that's for sure, because this is how reality itself is made. The rest therefore is for that "knowledge" or "consciousness" to only "echo" in the external world.


In my life it is true that letting go of things has mostly resulted in them drifting out of my consciousness. I have never had an old relationship re-appear, an old girlfriend suddenly wanting to get back together after I got over her.  That has not happened to me at all. But, once over them, it was fine, I wouldn't have wanted to get back together, I moved on.

My current situation is far more complex. Someone who I have come close to bet never had a real thing with, mostly due to some emotional issues they are dealing with. Although from an LOA standpoint, its all me, my "creation," my manifestation. Lots of hurt feelings, anger, etc. to release, and its not easy to say the least.  
"giving up" altogether, especially after a long period of visualizing or affirming one's desire, may rather be the last piece required in order to release all energy locked-up. Manifestation may then occur, even rapidly, as this one single "release of frustration" starts a chain reaction or "domino effect" in the system.

This could very well be, although my spider sense tells me if/when I give up the situation will drift off out of my life and I will simply move on.  Maybe not, we'll see. I really want to focus on business/career things so I can secure myself better financially. that is another focus I have. Well, we all have.
Wishing you all the best, Desideratum. You're a good man and you deserve the best. Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, I never believe that I can "see" people on the internet well enough to evaluate, judge or even fully understand their "personal" revelations. So I don't have much to say here really. But given what you just said and what I know about you in general, perhaps you are the one to release? Perhaps you're taking yourself too seriously? Perhaps you're not fully and constantly aware of the illusory nature of everything (and everyone)?


Can you elaborate a little on "giving up" not being recommended? Or are you simply saying that the removal of focus on the manifestation does what is does in every other situation, just takes the energy away, lowering the likelyhood of something changing.
I just mean "giving up" in the sense or context of frustration and hopelessness. I don't think such feelings can help in any manifestation. But "giving up" in the sense of "hanging loose" or "letting go" or "going with the flow" is rather great, of course.  



Perhaps a better way to think of this is rather than the "person" not being able to manifest the change, a "person with these core (subconscious) beliefs" will not be able to change, etc, Would you confirm that?
I intentionally wrote "the person" to counter particularly this common line of thinking. When we say/think the change is required in a "person's core beliefs," or a "person's subconscious mind," we imply that there is a "constant" and "independent" person, and then there is a "changeable" belief or mind. This is not only false but also limiting. The person is not constant, independent or separate from the mind. Rather, the person is the "product" of the mind. The person therefore is wholly changeable.

So I wrote "the person," meaning the whole "character," like in the movies. Hamlet can be sad in one scene and then "change" to be happy in the next. But I, the actor, am not limited by Hamlet or obliged to play Hamlet, or to change only his mind or belief or mood. I can change Hamlet himself. I can be Romeo, or Othello, or King Lear, instead of Hamlet. A whole new "character" in whole new "movie," different altogether.


This, I believe, is liberating. You are now playing "Desideratum," for example, whose values, beliefs, ideas, feelings, memories, family, church, school, society, culture; all shared in "sculpting" his overall character and together made up his "story" and finally led him to this very moment right now and here—suffering from, say, lack. Now Desideratum, as Desideratum, wants to change his limiting beliefs concerning money, all the way back to those he formed when he was 5 years old. What I'm saying and implying, instead, is that you are not even Desideratum. You're only "playing" Desideratum, and therefore you can "free" yourself, in a minute, from the whole "character." From the whole long "story" you've been, for decades, constantly both creating and imprisoning yourself in.

In other words, don't "decorate" the prison, just get out of it. Don't strive to renovate or rehabilitate the old one; just get out and keep out of it. Don't allow your mind to put you back in, because it's our mind and ONLY our mind that imprisons us.  



I suppose what defines a person, in the physical world, is what they think, believe, etc. Of course that is not the TRUTH of who a person is, which is none of those things at all, but I know you are speaking from the LOA perspective.
Exactly. But this takes us even a step further. Truth is, you're already out of your prison every single moment, but your mind and particularly your memory, every single moment, puts you back in. Our "default" state is rather freedom, not bondage. But we just hold on tightly to our "stories" and "dramas" and we rather run, every morning, to get back into our cells and keep locked up for the rest of the day. Very Happy
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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by rodan on Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:04 am

@Lotus:

I have been listening to one of Rupert Spira's youtube videos,( since my last post in here), where the host, interviews Rupert, and discuss, in detail, what consciousness is. I've listened to it before, several times. It's one I can follow with more understanding than some of his other videos,( not to diminish their importance), listed on youtube.

Early on, it starts off with Rupert asking the host...........

" Are you aware? "

He responds with a  confident, " yes ".  

The interview goes on from there, in detail.

Rupert says if you asked this of most people, randomly, they would answer, yes.

To catch up, I've read, and reread your conversations with " Desideratum ", dealing mainly with the subject of " letting go". I'm hoping to get back into this thread soon.

I see an old friend " MTC " has found the forum. It's good to see his name. I've always enjoyed his threads. Welcome, MTC, if you are reading this.
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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by Lotus ♥ on Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:43 pm

Hi Rodan. Thanks for your post, also for reading and following this last dialog with Desideratum. As for MTC, in case you don't know, he like Desideratum has been already sailing in the same ocean of non-duality for quite some time now. So it's definitely uplifting and inspiring to have them both on board today.

About Spira, yes some of his videos are of course easier to follow and understand than others. And when it comes to the "paradoxical" facts of reality, these are not understandable at all—although they still can be realized directly and intuitively, through the "heart" not the mind or intellect.

Please take your time, Rodan; I'll be around anyway. Thanks again and have a good day.
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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by Desideratum on Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:37 am

So if you're following with Neville or the first school in general, you don't even have a desire. You are already that you want to be. You are here working on Consciousness itself, where knowing and being are literally the same thing. If you know you are say wealthy, then you are wealthy, that's it—and that's for sure, because this is how reality itself i s made. The rest therefore is for that "knowledge" or "consciousness" to only "echo" in the external world.

Indeed, Neville did speak about the willingness to leave the old person behind and become a new person, the one who has the wish fulfilled. However, he talked about imagining this as he drifted off to sleep (or in a state akin to sleep). This way it would be imprinted into the subconscious mind more effectively.

It all seems to boil down to faith, the subconscious embodying of the new state.

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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by The Simplifier on Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:13 am

I had a lovely evening with Neville at the bookshop today. sunny



Last edited by The Simplifier on Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:22 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Photo)
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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by Night Eyes on Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:26 am

so has anyone managed to work on or move past any of their limiting beliefs?

i've been feeling a shift in my beliefs on money and jobs, i feel like i'm definitely heading in a better direction, i seem to be managing a lot better financially and having more money available to me, and getting work seems less scary for me lately Very Happy

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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by The Simplifier on Sun Jan 10, 2016 2:32 pm

Congrats Night, this is your turning point!
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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by Night Eyes on Sun Jan 10, 2016 5:31 pm

Thanks Armine... i'm embracing it all Smiley

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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by LittlemissSunshine on Mon Jan 11, 2016 2:33 am

I would love love love some advice about my job situation. I have many limiting beliefs when it comes to my job. I have been looking for another job for about two years now and if I am honest I it's been a long time since I really enjoyed what I am doing. My current job is stressful and I am dealing with work pressure on a daily basis. Three years ago I got a burn out. I think that was the time to leave that job permanently but then I got insomnia so bad that there wasn't one night that I got enough ours of sleep. So I didn't dare to look for another job. They know me at this job so if the nights get really bad I can start working later. Luckily I am much better now, so I have tried to find another job for a while now... Without any succes. I have applied for other positions within the same company, but every time I think this is it, I don't get the job. I am looking on the job marked as well, but don't see things I really like bc I want to change to something really different. I have made a list of my job wishes. I have visualized. I know I need to stay positive about my current job as well, but that's difficult. It's draining my energy at the moment. Trying to ignore current reality this way seems impossible. I see one co- worker after another switching to other positions while I feel literally stuck. I know that me writing this is filled with cants instead of cans. I have been trying for such a long time now that u feel that there is something within my state of mind that is holding me back. If I could make a change today I would. I am so done. Maybe anyone can give me some advice. Am I missing something here? Thank u
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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by Lotus ♥ on Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:29 pm

LittlemissSunshine wrote:I would love love love some advice about my job situation. I have many limiting beliefs when it comes to my job. I have been looking for another job for about two years now and if I am honest I it's been a long time since I really enjoyed what I am doing. My current job is stressful and I am dealing with work pressure on a daily basis. Three years ago I got a burn out. I think that was the time to leave that job permanently but then I got insomnia so bad that there wasn't one night that I got enough ours of sleep. So I didn't dare to look for another job. They know me at this job so if the nights get really bad I can start working later. Luckily I am much better now, so I have tried to find another job for a while now... Without any succes. I have applied for other positions within the same company, but every time I think this is it, I don't get the job. I am looking on the job marked as well, but don't see things I really like bc I want to change to something really different. I have made a list of my job wishes. I have visualized. I know I need to stay positive about my current job as well, but that's difficult. It's draining my energy at the moment. Trying to ignore current reality this way seems impossible. I see one co- worker after another switching to other positions while I feel literally stuck. I know that me writing this is filled with cants instead of cans. I have been trying for such a long time now that u feel that there is something within my state of mind that is holding me back. If I could make a change today I would. I am so done. Maybe anyone can give me some advice. Am I missing something here? Thank u

It's beyond me why nobody answered or even commented on this yet Very Happy so I'd like to at least let you know that I personally do care, and that I do send your way my best thoughts and wishes. Unfortunately I'm not very active anymore, but I sincerely wish I could reply or give you some advice.

One word I may add, though: When we go to an interview, we usually dress well, talk with confidence, keep mindful to our body language and generally do our best to prove or at least look qualified for the job. However, we also take with us our previous frustrations and disappointments, the desperation that may have grown in our heart because of all similar interviews we've been through before, and the whole history of failure, or defeat, let alone pain, that we usually think hidden in the deep recesses of our mind. In fact, we take all of this wherever we go not only to our interviews, and what we usually think hidden is not hidden at all. It's right there in our aura or "energy field," hovering all around us. Although most people are not psychic enough to "see" our aura or what might be there really, they're still sensitive enough to "sense" it, and they do communicate subconsciously with our subconscious. We thus end up having two levels of communication with everyone all the time, especially in such evaluative interviews: one is verbal and conscious; the other, silent and subconscious. Not only that you may unconsciously transmit frustration while consciously speaking of confidence, or silently convey failure while verbally promising success; but the mere fact that these two levels of communication may not be consistent and harmonious is itself disturbing and even repelling. Your interviewers therefore, regardless of your presentation, may disapprove you in the end, however skillful you may be, and neither you nor even they can clearly tell the reason.

In other words, because everything we go through leaves its mark or "impression" in our mind, the fact that you've been trying unsuccessfully for so long is itself a problem that needs your attention. Almost all people who try anything for so long with no success usually end up with this problem, and that's why it usually gets from bad to worse with time. Having a new job, for example, gradually feels unlikely and truly become improbable. Why? Because with every new disappointment or failure, you receive a new hit in your psyche. The more disappointment or failure you go through, the more and deeper "impressions of failure" get engraved on your mind. This is what you take with you to every new interview, communicate silently and unconsciously, and therefore only miss your chance of getting the job desired.


So apart from the main problem that put you in this job in the first place, also apart from the LOA theory, or your vibration, or your techniques dealing with this situation, I hope you're paying attention to this long history of failure that you may be carrying around without being aware of it. I think you need to take a break and to first "purify" your psyche and erase all those past and dark impressions on your mind. You need to go to your next interview feeling like it's your first, light and fresh, "with a song on your lips and in your heart"—without this invisible yet heavy burden on your shoulders and in your aura. I even believe that this alone, the purifying or cleansing of your mind, can dramatically increase your overall vibration and consequently chances.

Wishing you all the best anyway.
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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by Freya on Tue Jan 12, 2016 11:40 pm

This helps me too Lotus, thank you. Smiley Little Miss, I'm afraid I have no advice for you about limiting beliefs because I'm in the same position - not with jobs but I have some very deeply ingrained negative beliefs that I can't get rid of. I've tried some methods of getting rid of them (rewriting my reality etc.) but nothing seems to work, those beliefs are as stubborn as I am -- though I wonder if it is just a failure of will on my part somehow in some cases. I'm not sure.

Does anyone have some good tips on washing away limiting beliefs in general? How to erase negative impressions from the mind, etc.? NAPS? Other subconscious reprogramming...?

Little Miss, the one thing that does occur to me is that maybe there is a way to like the job you're in already, and that in doing so you'll open yourself up to an abundance mindset and it will naturally add more gratitude to your life. Obviously your feelings about the job are natural and I totally sympathise with being drained and tired and stressed, but there is always a way to create at least a slight mental shift no matter what the situation is.

As Epictetus said, "Everything has two handles, the one by which it may be carried, the other by which it cannot." I think that when we're overworked we tend to be holding the situation by the handle that makes it a heavy burden, and it gets worse and worse and harder to carry, we struggle more and more and get more and more stressed out. But there will always be something bearable about a situation, and the more we focus on it the more happiness comes in other areas. I don't know, that's what I think, I'm working on implementing it myself, maybe others will have other ideas or useful input.

I love Alan Watts' idea of "work as play". If we go about life as if we're playing a game, completing difficult challenges and levelling up all the time, it can sometimes be easier....

I believe we can learn to like whatever we have to do, whatever it is, but at the same time I think we should always follow our passion....

Here's a (not very nicely but at least colourfully) illustrated excerpt of a famous Alan Watts talk on the subject of vocation.

http://zenpencils.com/comic/98-alan-watts-what-if-money-was-no-object/

Obviously you know this, but I thought I'd put it up anyway since we're talking about work. Wink

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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by The Simplifier on Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:55 am

Littlemiss, you've received plenty of good insight here today. I suppose the only thing I'd like to mention is when you say that ignoring currently reality this way seems impossible, it really is. You can't expect to be able to ignore current reality (especially one that is bugging you) until you have a good idea of the new focus. It looks to me like you haven't made much cognitive contact yet with the destination- the preferred reality. You don't need a whoooole lot more, but a little more consistency asking yourself (and letting the answers come) of what it is that you do want now. Then give yourself permission to feel the joy of that reality at least as much as you're "facing" the old (still physical) reality.

You'll find it to be more pleasant and easy to do once you let go of feeling bad about "still not having found a new job". It's amazing really. Let ththat post you wrote be the last words confessing that you don't have your new, better job yet.


Let me know if you have any specific questions or concerns. Remember, of course your mind isn't going to accept the new reality idea so quickly when it's been used to so long of time you being dissatisfied with your job. Practice a bit more the true vibration of being satisfied and it will show up for you. I promise.
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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by LittlemissSunshine on Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:33 am

Lotus, freya and Armine, your words were enough to shift my vibration today. Lotus you are absolutely right I need to cleans my mind. My whole work experience has been nothing but build up frustration. The failure cycle is exactly what I am going through. Ever since I know about The LOA attraction I have managed to turn my life around in almost every area of my life, except this. I know there are many things blocking my vibration. I will take your advice and will focus on getting into a state of mind that is at ease. I don't know if I can get into the state of loving the job, but I know I can be neutral. Today I had an oppointment and I chose to walk instead at a comfortable pace instead of rushing from one appointment to the other. It felt good. I really enjoyed the walk. Managing my own agenda is one of the good things about my job. I know that I can find small things to be happy about. So thank you for your reply. It means a lot to me Smiley

Freya, I use that moment right before u go to sleep to mumble the things I want. It keeps me focused. What helps the most is acknowledging all the things the way they are. Don't fear your fears or your beliefs. Just take it as an indication as things you can still work on an go from there. I noticed that once I acknowledge things and accept them the fear slowly goes away. It looses it importance. I used subcon programming to increase my sports results. It works for that, so it must work to get rid off the limiting beliefs as well Smiley

Thank you Armine! That post will be the last negative thing I said about my job. ( oh how I love my job Wink ) I will focus more on what I want and accept what is. Thank you all for your help. It really does help! I know how to move on now.
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Re: Limiting Beliefs

Post by Night Eyes on Wed Jan 13, 2016 4:42 pm

Little Miss i absolutely love your positivity.... its contagious, you're such a beautiful soul I love you

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Re: Limiting Beliefs

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