Developing Supernatural Powers

Thanks mtc i appreciate your help, Lotus has been so helpful and patient with me on this for so long bless him, he's provided me with an abundance of information which has been fantastic, i think for me yes i get it intellectually, i understand the no-self, and the infinite conciousness, i've even done the task of trying to pinpoint this I that is Night Eyes and come up with nothing, so i get it, might find some of the metaphors a bit dodgy but i think my understanding is a lot better than before.

but yes its the letting it go further than the intellectual and experiencing it fully, i know there's been points in my life where i have had these spiritual moments recently and before i knew anything about it, where you just..... 'know' or you feel connected to everything on some magical level, but unfortunately my ego or illusory self is still snapping me back if that makes sense?

so if you reach this realization... what happens then, do you stay there? or do you just come back to the illusory world with a deeper understanding?

thanks for the links i'll have a looksie over the weekend

Night Eyes wrote:arghhhh Lotus Lotus Lotus... you blow my tiny little restless mind haha

ok i'm going to forget the mirror analogy, as i can see my illusory mind going round the houses on this one.....

and if its ok with you i'm going to take time on this last post of yours.. or find a way to let it go deeper than intellectual understanding... so far its only fleeting moments where i've experienced it on a deeper level, such as extreme joy or extreme emotional turmoil.


i get it... but i cant always feel or experience it....

What? You don't feel it or experience it, of course, but you got it? I just read your earlier post again but I still can't see where or why your mind is struggling or "going round the houses on this one." Are you aware, for example, that this whole analogy of mirrors has nothing to do with mtc or lotus or night, but is all about the soul(s) behind these personas? You said, "Night Eyes is a reflection of Lotus, who is a reflection of mtc, and so on and so forth," but are you aware that the accurate version here is, "Night Eyes' self or soul is a reflection of Lotus' soul, who is a reflection of mtc's soul, and so on and so forth?" You also wrote, "We will still only see the illusion of ourselves in a mirror … unless i develop some magical powers i'm not going to look in the mirror … and see Lotus, even though i understand Night Eyes and Lotus are the same thing, just different illusions." So perhaps… perhaps you got it all upside down? Let's check over this last sentence:

First, "We will still only see the illusion of ourselves in a mirror." No, we do NOT see ourselves, real or illusory, in these mirrors, in these spiritual mirrors, unless first awake. Are we on the same page? Are you aware that mtc is the mirror? You are the mirror? This being the case, then it's quite the opposite here: When you look at mtc, you see mtc, not yourself. Right? He is not a mirror (yet), rather an "image," of another man out there. So primarily you do not see yourself in this kind of mirrors/people. To your mind, still deluded, people are not mirrors, are they?

Put another way, people are mirrors, but they're all covered or wrapped in colorful paper, so they cease to be or to function as mirrors, and you therefore see only the wrapping paper.

Second, when you are awake, all covers become transparent. So now when you look, you don't see the various colors or pictures on the wrapping paper. You see through this covering paper, only to find out that all people instead look alike behind the paper; all show one image, of one Being. Who is this Being? You. So only then you realize that they are mirrors, reflecting you. They only then become mirrors and function as such.


Please read my last post again: All snakes "cease" to be snakes and instead become mirrors when you see the rope in each. Why? Because even if they came in different colors and sizes, showing different features and faces, the material or substance of the "rope" is one and the same. All of them then, and ONLY THEN, become mirrors. Instead of looking like different snakes, they rather look like mirrors of each other, all reflecting the one image of the same one rope-essence.

Now exactly what is that you don't get, intellectually? Or do you mean only the experience—the inner, spiritual or emotional experience?


Finally, Night, it's not really important even if you don't understand. "It's enough not to misunderstand," as Nisargadatta once said. Let alone the very practical Buddha who, in reply to all such exercises, would only ask, "Would this help you wake up?" No. "Then forget it."

So instead, at least for now, stick to your simple and basic understanding, as expressed in the ripples and water metaphor (or at most in Indra's Net metaphor). What you said earlier for example—about the different reflections being representations or manifestations of the one consciousness—was perfect, "very intelligent" as I said then. The rest of my/our posts here was to only answer why those reflections seem to be not only many but also different from one another. But, do you believe this can really help you see through the veils of illusion? I don't think you need this at the moment. I think what you and we all need is to just answer the first and basic question, "Who am I?" Can you really find this entity you call "Night Eyes" anywhere? Try. Try again. Try harder. Where is it?

So "Know Thyself," my friend; this is really all that matters.

(And now if you don't really find it, as I just read in your reply to mtc, then drop it. Why hold on to this utter illusion? Why think on her behalf, feel on her behalf and act on her behalf? Why not just rest, for now, in the "Witness" position, establish yourself there, stay fully present yet fully detached, and gradually "know" your Self more and more?)

moretocome wrote:
Hi Night Eyes!

There are very, very few who can articulate Truth with incredible skill through the written word. Lotus is one of these rare cases.

However, Lotus' ability to speak about Truth with authority comes from his direct experience of Truth. He knows (beyond mere intellectual understanding) that there is no "separate self" because he's had a profound experience of this Truth.

Some call it a mystical experience. Others call it a spiritual experience. Some refer to it as the experience (or realization) of no-self. Anyone who has experienced it understands what the term "no-self" means. There is no separate "you" or "me" or "other". The 'separate self' is a mental construct - It is creation of the mind. It is a false belief.

Thank you my friend for your words. You're really so generous, mtc. By the same token, however, I know nobody's home. Who is he really that has any skill or can articulate any truth or knows anything or has been through any experience?

 

moretocome wrote:I'll get to the point-

In Lotus' words, "Truth therefore is to be directly experienced, not intellectually understood or articulated in words." I wholeheartedly agree. Intellectual understanding is valuable, however, experiencing Truth is altogether different.  

Just to clarify - I've had the 'no-self' experience. Once this Truth is experienced, "you" will never look at "you" or anyone else in the same way again. Your perception is changed forever (in a wonderful & beautiful way).

Contrary to what most people believe, there are specific ways to trigger the experience / realization of no-self. The following provide several ways in which to trigger the no-self experience (or realization).

All of the following are free:

   1) Read the Main Page at http://www.no-self.com/
       
   2) There is a Forum that assists people with "seeing no-self".
http://liberationunleashed.com/

   3) Read the online e-Book, Butterflies are Free to Fly, by Stephen Davis.
http://www.butterfliesfree.com/
(This e-book was what initially triggered my experience.)


Best wishes along your path,
-mtc

That was very helpful, mtc; thank you. I was about to ask for your suggestions, so please don't hesitate to step in whenever you think you can add to this dialog. So far I don't really understand what's ambiguous or confusing about those mirrors.
 
Only one comment, on The Gate: They follow the Buddhist way and methodology, and therefore they unfortunately provide different set of answers to most basic questions than those provided by Non-duality or Advaita—although the final conclusions are almost the same. Personally I love the Buddhist methodology, but I also believe the total negation in Buddhism, among other premises, is not suitable for everyone. Especially in the beginning, it's very likely to lead to a sense of nihilism, or perhaps even depression. Just my opinion anyway. It's definitely a great site, one of the best and most meaningful on the web, and I'm forever grateful to those two ladies who launched this unique project. But newcomers should be cautious though. If they didn't like it, or felt the experience was increasingly depressing, they should simply, and unregretfully, just walk out. There are several paths not only Buddhism. Not to mention all paths of love or devotion in almost all religions, including Islam whose Sufism gave us such peerless seers as Rumi, only for example.
 
One more thing: the first link here is "your" website, right? I don't know why I think so or where I got this information from. I think you gave it to me, of course, about a year ago, but now I'm not sure. It's still as insightful anyway.

Lotus dont worry, i read your post a few times and had an AH-HA moment with the mirrors lol

it finally dawned on me

sorry i replied the above without realising there was a post for me above the one for mtc, doh!

but yes i had a clarifying moment on the mirror analogy when reading your post over and over and it sunk in eventually, i like the wrapping example that makes sense, we're only seeing the wrapping not whats underneath.

also with staying as the witness because i cant find this entity called Night Eyes..... i'm working on it there are times when i can do it effortlessly and times where its really hard and the ego takes over... its funny.. or weird what i'm going to say next as most people wouldnt see it as a positive thing or a blessing in disguise, but recently... Night Eyes has been gripped with severe anxiety... and at its worst point, there was an 'oh well' moment.... where suddenly it just didnt seem important, since then i've been able to detach from it and be the obsever watching the racing mind create all kinds of illusory rubbish, so i guess it became a positive in this respect as i know i can do this.... just not consistently.....

Night Eyes wrote:
so if you reach this realization... what happens then, do you stay there? or do you just come back to the illusory world with a deeper understanding?

Great question NightEyes!

Realization

Everyone is different in this regard. Likewise, everyone's 'path' is unique as well. Therefore, I can only speak for myself. I had the experience on 2/5/11. From my perspective, once the illusion of a separate self is 'seen', it can never be 'unseen'. It changed my life. Even today, as I contemplate this Truth, I am still awe-struck by it.  

With that said, even after one has the realization of "no-self", the old patterns of the ego-self can continue to exist. For many (who've had the realization), it’s perplexing to clearly realize that there is no separate “you” while, at the same time, there remain issues in life that continue to trouble “you”.

This is due to the fact that, even after realizing no-self, the prior mental constructs and conditioning of the ego-self continue to play out in a person’s life. In other words, even though there is truly no separate “you”, the prior mental constructs and belief in a separate “you” have not been erased.

Embodiment

Thus, speaking only for me, after the realization of no-self, I have entered a 'phase' of embodiment (and I'm still in that 'phase', so to speak).  

Embodiment is LIVING the TRUTH of Who You Really Are. In essence, you are embodying the TRUTH of Who You Are (i.e. making the Truth a part of you).

Some of the methods used to embody the Truth include:

Meditation (several hours every day)
Unconditional Love
Surrender
Practicing the Presence of 'God'
Staying in Present Moment
Non-Judgment


It'll be interesting to see what Lotus' perspective is on this (if he feels moved to share). His perspective will likely be completely different than mine.  

This is to be expected and what is so wonderful about the multitude of unique perspectives out there. Of over 7 billion people on earth, no two perspectives are exactly the same (just like no two people are exactly the same, no two snowflakes are exactly the same, etc.).  

Lotus wrote:
Thank you my friend for your words. You're really so generous, mtc.

It is well deserved Brother. "You" remain a constant inspiration and beacon of Truth for "us" all. The impact of which is felt by many.

I would also compliment "you" on all of your wonderful work on this website, but I know that your retort will be - "Who is here to compliment?"  LOL.    

 

Lotus wrote: 
Only one comment, on The Gate: They follow the Buddhist way and methodology, and therefore they unfortunately provide different set of answers to most basic questions than those provided by Non-duality or Advaita—although the final conclusions are almost the same. Personally I love the Buddhist methodology, but I also believe the total negation in Buddhism, among other premises, is not suitable for everyone. Especially in the beginning, it's very likely to lead to a sense of nihilism, or perhaps even depression. Just my opinion anyway.

I agree.

I personally don't resonate with some of their premises (e.g. non-existence, etc.). I'm not sure if this is what you mean by "total negation" or not.

Of course, everyone's perspective / path is unique. I included their link because they are an effective option for 'triggering' no-self within a Forum setting.

[Just for anyone else reading this - The Gate refers to this website - http://liberationunleashed.com/ ]  

Lotus wrote:
One more thing: the first link here is "your" website, right?

Yes, you are correct. Naturally, it may resonate for a few, but not others.

Thanks mtc, i think with all of this even on the intellectual level, you cant ever just un-know it lol, it has seeped in to my everyday thinking and perspectives.. i guess i just have to continue along my path and see where it takes me

its funny as this subject is cropping up offline in my conversations now, i keep running into people who are into this subject more and more, i've had some amazing conversations about the illusion of the self and living in the moment... to me its an indication i'm going in the right direction

i hope to get to where you and Lotus are one day but i know its not going to happen overnight

I know Lotus mentioned something in one of his posts about the gate forum can make it a bit depressing which as he knows when i first started learning, i did find all this a bit of a downer, and i actually felt quite isolated and alone thinking about it all, but i'm past that now, i think right now its a battle of the ego fearing its annihilation.

anyways i'm waffling away, i just want to thank you both for your patience and your help, i'm going to go and try to put my money where my mouth is on all of this now

Night Eyes wrote:Lotus dont worry, i read your post a few times and had an AH-HA moment with the mirrors lol

it finally dawned on me

sorry i replied the above without realising there was a post for me above the one for mtc, doh!

but yes i had a clarifying moment on the mirror analogy when reading your post over and over and it sunk in eventually, i like the wrapping example that makes sense, we're only seeing the wrapping not whats underneath.

also with staying as the witness because i cant find this entity called Night Eyes..... i'm working on it there are times when i can do it effortlessly and times where its really hard and the ego takes over... its funny.. or weird what i'm going to say next as most people wouldnt see it as a positive thing or a blessing in disguise, but recently... Night Eyes has been gripped with severe anxiety... and at its worst point, there was an 'oh well' moment.... where suddenly it just didnt seem important, since then i've been able to detach from it and be the obsever watching the racing mind create all kinds of illusory rubbish, so i guess it became a positive in this respect as i know i can do this.... just not consistently.....

 
This non-duality stuff is the most mind-blowing view or belief system one can ever find, with a lot of paradoxes along the way, so really many things can go wrong or get stuck and just obstruct the natural flow of understanding. Glad you got it in the end. Please don't hesitate to share your inquiries, any time, Night; I rather enjoy your dialogs and questions and especially admire your persistence.
 
A nice story about those mirrors in the end: The Buddha and his disciples were sometimes received officially in the royal palace by the king, other times by the queen, but either way he'd always say, "May the king be happy!" His disciples thought much about it, but they couldn't figure out the infinite wisdom behind it. Finally one of them was brave enough to ask him directly: "Why is it, venerable sir, that whether it is the king who receives us or the queen you say ‘May the king be happy’?" The Buddha replied: "Friends, I do not notice whether it is the king or the queen."
 
 
Yes, the detached position of the Witness is not stable or consistent especially in the beginning. This is quite natural, even with those who have profound understanding of it all. We liken it to the oven: although the "fire" is put out, the "heat" still remains for some time. That's also why there are several practices one should observe, and some even believe a guru must be there. But anyway don't worry. If not sure yet about these facts, first make sure. If sure, then just remind yourself constantly of this truth you're now sure about–of the illusory nature of the whole show, and of the utter absence, again the UTTER ABSENCE, of the persona you've been for so long identifying with. In parallel, gently start training your mind to practice meditation, Vipassana, or Pranayama. All three have almost the same fruit.
 
Anyway, for now just establish and settle your witnessing position and gradually drop the "story." Feeling sad, troubled, angry or even in pain, for example, just remember to ask yourself, "Who's this really feeling sad, or angry, or in pain?" Gradually, your mind, helpless before your firm Consciousness, will finally give up and start looking inward instead of outward—or "fall into the heart" as the masters put it. The music then begins. Now you see, and are free at last. Now you're full of peace, lasting and unwavering. You feel still like a mountain, and empty like space. Nothing ever happens "to" you anymore, yet everything is there sill running like a movie on your silently witnessing screen. And now you look at all those walking around, laughing or weeping, but only see… prisoners! That's finally why you end up full of compassion for those chained by their fears, weaknesses and illusions—those who, albeit mighty gods, are held captive in the dark vaults of their minds.
                                      
 
Just read mtc's suggestions:
 

Meditation (several hours every day)
Unconditional Love
Surrender
Practicing the Presence of 'God'
Staying in Present Moment
Non-Judgment

I hope it's obvious that all these practices, like mine, are both effects and results at the same time. The more you evoke God in your life, for example, the more unconditionally you love and the less you judge. And vice versa, the less you judge or more unconditionally love, the more presence of God will be felt in your life. But, generally speaking, most people do neither. Why? Because these practices are against the natural movement of the mind, the seat of the ego, and the creator of all illusions. So the mind is the major obstacle here, and taming the mind is your first priority—in order to easily practice and master everything else. Because of this, meditation is always recommended (in either flavor Concentration or Mindfulness). This is the main practice in almost all schools, because meditations works directly on the mind and gradually controls its restlessness. (Pranayama, in addition, or even alone, helps greatly, because a general rule here says: "Who controls prana controls mana [mind], and who controls mana controls prana.")
 
 
Yet finally, and most importantly, remember that this all is only to establish your Truth, or even only to remove altogether the last illusions, help you know your Self more and get you shining more and more. So don't view this as a great "attainment," a "destination," a journey you're now to start or a path to tread. This itself is yet another trap. You just wrote for example:
 

i hope to get to where you and Lotus are one day but i know its not going to happen overnight

 
You are there already. NOW. Thinking otherwise IS the illusion. Precisely THIS is the illusion.
 

i think right now its a battle of the ego fearing its annihilation

 
It's not there to be annihilated, is it? See the trick? Your mind creates an enemy out of NOTHING, and then gets you busy fighting this enemy for the rest of your life—fighting a total illusion; fighting the snake that never existed in the rope. Even the word "path" is misleading. There is no "destination" to reach or arrive at. You are ALREADY there. You've already arrived. You've never even left in the first place. You are fully and completely the Infinite Self, the Source altogether, right now and as ever before. This path therefore, unlike any other path, doesn't reach any destination; it rather starts from the destination.
 
So meditate, for example, but not to be who you are. Who you already are. Meditate just to silence the mind that keeps lying by day and night, constantly deluding you into these illusions. Meditate to just "see" more of your endlessness, realize more of your limitlessness, and explore more of your infinity.
 
It's not "bon voyage," Night; rather "welcome back."

moretocome wrote:
It'll be interesting to see what Lotus' perspective is on this (if he feels moved to share). His perspective will likely be completely different than mine.  

lol.. Why? As you probably just read we have a lot in common. Although I fully agree with you about the "unique perspective," even find it fascinating, I think at least the basics are the same and in common when it comes to "seeing" or "awakening" (supposedly I ever had this experience.) And no wonder: Truth is one and the same; the "unique" is only the expression of it.
 
I also totally agree with your "prior mental constructs and belief." Very true and very well said. It's because of these mental constructs that we were born as humans or ever had bodies in the first place. The body itself is the product of the ego, not the other way around. The body is the manifestation or translation of the ego's belief "I am separate." So these constructs and patterns, at least in the doctrine of reincarnation, are built-in, and born-in. And no matter how awake we become, we don't evaporate for example or turn into transparent spirits. We keep the body and keep conditioned by the body, at least, which is itself one of those constructs.*
 
Therefore, starting with the fleeting thoughts in the mind, all the way down to the physical body itself, all are manifestations and expressions of prior mental constructs and patterns. So this understanding was not only true but also very deep indeed and I fully agree with it.
 
 

I would also compliment "you" on all of your wonderful work on this website, but I know that your retort will be - "Who is here to compliment?"  LOL. 

Well, frankly… I actually deny even the existence of the "complimenter" himself. It's just out of decency that I still say "thank you" to people—by now, obviously, a totally meaningless phrase. lol
 
(That's by the way why I know I'm not there yet: Why for example, why for God's sake, ever reply or act "out of decency"?)
 

I personally don't resonate with some of their premises (e.g. non-existence, etc.). I'm not sure if this is what you mean by "total negation" or not.

Yes, although at least one school recognizes the primacy of Consciousness and is therefore very close to Advaita. (In any case, The Buddha himself was not a Buddhist. We the Advaitins believe they all misinterpreted his teachings).

Of course, everyone's perspective / path is unique. I included their link because they are an effective option for 'triggering' no-self within a Forum setting.

[Just for anyone else reading this - The Gate refers to this website - http://liberationunleashed.com/ ]

Great that you sent this link to The Gate forum. I always wished to, but never did for the reasons mentioned. Now as you finally did, I had to highlight that point, just for the newcomers not to think that "this" they find on The Gate is what we all mean by non-self, non-duality, or the awakening experience in general.
 

One more thing: the first link here is "your" website, right?

Yes, you are correct.

Then let everybody know. I believe many here would love to visit your website and learn more about you and your views.
 
http://www.no-self.com/
 
Thanks, mtc.

________________
 
* Although there are exceptions: Some may leave the gross body and "ascend" in the subtle (or Astral) body, like Jesus; others may reach to the highest (Causal) body, like Buddha, and still others may in addition de-manifest the gross body altogether, like Babaji. Not to mention the "many" adept yogis throughout the ages who could leave their gross bodies at will and then return back to them after a certain period of time—days, months, years, and in at least two cases hundreds of years. During this period they were apparently dead, yet somehow their bodies didn't decompose or start the process of decaying. The last of those adepts, well known to the public, was Sri Ramakrishna (about 1886), the grand master of many masters, including Vivekananda.

Lotus thank you for this, i really appreciate your patience and i'm glad you enjoy our dialogues i enjoy them very much and i feel like i'm learning so much, i know theres no going back on this, in a way its like being guided home, i just have to keep going

one last question though.. is there another term other than God that can be used... when you talk of the presence of God, are you just talking infinite conciousness or the God up in Heaven?

Night Eyes wrote:one last question though.. is there another term other than God that can be used... when you talk of the presence of God, are you just talking infinite conciousness or the God up in Heaven?

I/We use the word God just as a "pointer," Night. But this is a very beautiful and important question indeed, for "God" in the east or the eastern mind is not exactly the same in the west or western mind, so let me tell you the story of God, very briefly though:


First, there is the Source, the Supreme, nameless, unmanifest, indescribable, indefinable and unfathomable. 'It' is beyond all dualities, beyond mind and reason, totally unknown and unknowable. We only know of its "Presence." But because we can't help it we give it a name anyway, so we call it the Supreme, for example. We also call it the Self. This is what we mean by the Self, Night. This is who you are.

Next, of this totally hidden Source, or Supreme, or Presence, or Self, the first manifestation is what we may recognize as infinite Consciousness. This is only for brevity, but it's originally Existence-Consciousness-Bliss, or Being-Knowing-bliss. These three are indeed one; they're only conceptually separate, as "concepts" only in our minds. But anyway, the point here is that the Source or the Self is beyond duality; beyond both Consciousness and non-Consciousness, both Being and non-Being, beyond even Self and non-Self. So here It only seems or manifests as infinite Intelligence or Consciousness. 

Next, due to the very nature of this Intelligence or Consciousness, there rises what we now recognize as the Mind. So these three are indeed the same Presence or Self, only in different levels of manifestation. Or as Nisargadatta once put it, "Mind is the body of Consciousness, and Consciousness is the body of the Self."

Finally, this Mind is what "sees" or "visualizes" the world, and by doing so, the world seems to be created and there seems to be creation. There is no world whatsoever; It's only the Mind, being self-conscious, viewing its limitless Imagination and exploring its boundless Creativity. But, figuratively speaking, we call it creation and therefore the Mind is the Creator. We then "personify" this Mind, so we call it Brahma, or the Son, or Christ or Jesus. This is finally God as we know him.


That's why in Christianity, the Son, not the Father, is the Creator who created the world. And who's the Son? From the Bible, John in particular, we know he is the "Logos." What does "Logos" mean? Greek for "Mind." This is the official Christianity itself.

That's also why God is known to be omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent. But these qualities or powers, by their very nature, are world-related and even world-bound. They need a world to manifest or actualize in. God therefore, the Mind, ends with the world in the end, and is anyway as illusory as the world and as every other "manifestation" is; after all there only exists the Self. This is the only Truth there is, before, now, and forever.

That's finally why, hopefully clear by now, the Self, in a sense, is "higher" than even God. This answers why in the east it's acceptable to view some men and women as gods or call them gods and avatars of God. The Supreme Self itself is already everywhere, and is the Truth of every man and woman. As such, it's not really blasphemous to view some as gods. This is not even Self-realization or full enlightenment yet. Those men or women could just acquire the "mundane" powers of God; so what? This, in itself, is nothing yet, and may even be a sign of total failure if it took the seeker's eye from the true Self to the illusory world (in order to exercise their supernatural powers). That's why the Buddha warned strongly against all such powers, and Sri Ramakrishna even described them once as "heaps of rubbish."

You can therefore be both Hindu and Christian, or Hindu and Muslim. Adding your God to the show, that you call Jesus or the Christ or Allah, is no problem at all, because gods are not "rivals" here. They all are only avatars, only manifestations or expressions of, or even only pointers to, the one and only Truth, the supreme Self.


Needless to say, the masses, the poor and simple, even in India, don't fully understand all of this. They take the gods for real, from Brahma and Shiva to Babaji and Maharshi. They bow before their pictures and worship the literal image or appearance of the saint, not the hidden Principle or the unmanifest Divine in all. Thus, ironically, both the east and the west missed the point: the east ended up full of literal gods and even idols, the west took only one of those gods and built a whole new religion around him.


Now you got the whole map, Night. Personally I use the word God only when it's more suitable to the listener or reader, or more able to communicate a specific meaning, like this one about "the presence of God in your life." But I of course mean Consciousness (Being-Knowing-Bliss) and even what's beyond Consciousness itself.


I'd like to thank you in the end for this question, because you also reminded me of an important note that I wrote about Advaita a while ago. I think it should be clear here as well, at least for our Christian reader:

When we write that this Truth, the Absolute, the Supreme, the Eternal, the indescribable and incomprehensible Infinite, is the Self, not God, the Christian mind, and all duality-oriented minds, would naturally feel uncomfortable reading this and probably find it even blasphemous. Yet ironically, it's quite the opposite. This view or doctrine or philosophy is more recognitive of and loyal to the Divine than any religion ever taught or even dreamed. While almost all religions affirm both the human AND the Divine, an impossible duality to say the least, in Non-duality we rather deny the human altogether, in order for the Divine to manifest altogether. "I am the Supreme," therefore, doesn't mean that [Lotus], the human, is the Supreme. On the contrary, it's only through the total negation of Lotus the human that this statement can be true. Moreover, this indeed is the original or at least hidden doctrine especially in Christianity, from John the Baptist's "He must increase, and I must decrease," all the way to Paul's "I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me," let alone all the Light of the World in between.


Finally, thank you again for this dialog in general, Night; it was a beautiful journey, with a wonderful woman, and I'm rather grateful to you. We were also blessed by the presence of Moretocome, and by his sharing and contribution, so thanks to him as well. Blessed are your hearts and eyes, and take care.

Thanks for your explanation Lotus, i've never been a religious person so i dont know much about it, and it was confusing me so i needed to understand, i'm glad you were happy for the question though as i didnt want to throw a controvesial spanner in the works lol x x

Night Eyes wrote:
i think with all of this even on the intellectual level, you cant ever just un-know it lol, it has seeped in to my everyday thinking and perspectives....

That's actually a great point.

Night Eyes wrote:
its funny as this subject is cropping up offline in my conversations now, i keep running into people who are into this subject more and more, i've had some amazing conversations about the illusion of the self and living in the moment... to me its an indication i'm going in the right direction

I agree. Interesting synchronicity.  

Night Eyes wrote:anyways i'm waffling away, i just want to thank you both for your patience and your help, i'm going to go and try to put my money where my mouth is on all of this now

You're most welcome Night. I'm glad you and Lotus were so gracious with regard to my intrusion into your discussion.

Peace and Love to you.

oh i'm more than happy for you to jump in on our convos, and i'm sure Lotus is too, its been lovely to pick your illusory brains

Lotus wrote:

As you probably just read we have a lot in common.

We do indeed, my friend.  

There is a great deal that we have in common and I always enjoy the depth of your posts, insights, knowledge, etc.

All the practices that I mentioned (Meditation, Surrender, etc.) can really all be summed up in your beautiful quote, as follows:

"The more you evoke God in your life, for example, the more unconditionally you love and the less you judge. And vice versa, the less you judge or more unconditionally love, the more presence of God will be felt in your life."

Eventually, as the Masters have demonstrated, this 'Presence of God' is realized as "your very own" Presence. "You" (as ego) disappear and "God" (the Infinite Divine) is what remains. "What remains" is the only true Essence that was there in the first place.

Lotus wrote:
Although I fully agree with you about the "unique perspective," even find it fascinating, I think at least the basics are the same and in common when it comes to "seeing" or "awakening" (supposedly I ever had this experience.) And no wonder: Truth is one and the same; the "unique" is only the expression of it.

Wonderfully expressed.

Of course, 'unique perspectives' are not Truth; they remain in the realm of relativity / duality. Although, I must admit that I find it quite the honor to exist in this delusive, yet extremely challenging, mental construct called 'duality'. Naturally, not everyone finds duality and the "illusion" to be the honor and blessing that I perceive it to be.      

Lotus wrote: 
Therefore, starting with the fleeting thoughts in the mind, all the way down to the physical body itself, all are manifestations and expressions of prior mental constructs and patterns.

It's fascinating to realize that everything is merely a mental construct - nothing more than a creation of mind.

Lotus wrote:
http://liberationunleashed.com/ ]
Great that you sent this link to The Gate forum. I always wished to, but never did for the reasons mentioned. Now as you finally did, I had to highlight that point, just for the newcomers not to think that "this" they find on The Gate is what we all mean by non-self, non-duality, or the awakening experience in general.

I'm glad that you included the caveat.

I can relate. I had the same reservations regarding the website that was the precursor to The Gate forum. It used to be called RuthlessTruth.com. In comparison, The Gate has a much, much softer, gentler approach, etc.    
 

Lotus wrote:
I believe many here would love to visit your website and learn more about you and your views.
 
http://www.no-self.com/

I appreciate that. Thank you for your gracious words.

The reason I didn't mention that I owned the site was because I didn't want Night-Eyes to feel even the slightest hint of pressure to check it out (or feel like I have an agenda and was pushing it in any way).

It's main function is to 'trigger' no-self for those interested. I continue to maintain it as a stand-alone site. I used to work one-on-one to trigger people, but I no longer feel moved to do so.

In any case, Lotus, I continue to enjoy your many wonderful posts and dialogue. All are Blessed to have you here.


I am re-posting the following quote from you because it deserves to be read at least once more-

When we write that this Truth, the Absolute, the Supreme, the Eternal, the indescribable and incomprehensible Infinite, is the Self, not God, the Christian mind, and all duality-oriented minds, would naturally feel uncomfortable reading this and probably find it even blasphemous. Yet ironically, it's quite the opposite. This view or doctrine or philosophy is more recognitive of and loyal to the Divine than any religion ever taught or even dreamed. While almost all religions affirm both the human AND the Divine, an impossible duality to say the least, in Non-duality we rather deny the human altogether, in order for the Divine to manifest altogether. "I am the Supreme," therefore, doesn't mean that [Lotus], the human, is the Supreme. On the contrary, it's only through the total negation of Lotus the human that this statement can be true. Moreover, this indeed is the original or at least hidden doctrine especially in Christianity, from John the Baptist's "He must increase, and I must decrease," all the way to Paul's "I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me," let alone all the Light of the World in between.

Much Love,
-mtc

I love all this. MTC, I've been reading The Autobiography of a Yogi a bit as I told you. I'll be back to you soon once I have some comments to make...

But for anyone else who hadn't read it before, I've found an excellent online edition of the book, here: http://www.ananda.org/autobiography/



Edit: It will probably still take me another day or two before I have something intelligent to say!

Amazing book.

It just goes to show you that there are truly no limits for the Divine (i.e. God) or for one who FULLY embodies the Divine (as do the yogi Masters in the book).

Here are some excerpts from various writings of Paramahansa Yogananda on love that really resonated with me. I'm really glad that you put me onto him, MTC. (As to The Autobiography, I'm still not far enough to be able to really feel qualified to comment on it, but it's truly lovely.

Excerpts:

Love comes first. That must be the ideal. When two people feel an unconditional attraction for each other, and are ready to sacrifice for one another, they are truly in love. Then only are they ready for an intimate relationship in marriage. Mere possessiveness won't do. When one marriage partner tries to control the other, it shows a lack of real love. But when they express their love in continual thoughtfulness for the true happiness of the other, it becomes divine love. In such a relationship we have a glimpse of the Divine.

* * *

To love those that love you is easy. To love those that love you not is not so simple. If you want to change anyone, set a better example. Show more kindness, more understanding, more love. That has a sure effect. To those who are not kind, show kindness. To those who are mean, show bigness of heart.

* * *

Knowledge prepares the way to love. You cannot love that which you do not know. Knowledge of God must therefore precede love for Him. This knowledge comes with practice of Kriya Yoga.

* * *

God is love. God is joy.

* * *

In the state of love, no matter what you do, it’s going to be good.

* * *

The relationship that exists between friends is the grandest of human loves. Friendly love is pure, because it is without compulsion. ... Such pure friendship has existed between saints and between others who truly love God. If you once know divine love, you will never part with it, for there is nothing else like it in the whole universe.


God's love is the supreme love. There is no love greater than that. The love that is born of instinct has its defects because it is compelled. That is why I sang to God as Divine Mother, "In this world, Mother, no one can love me; in this world they do not know how to love me."* Only the divine love of great ones is born of wisdom. That love is infinitely greater than parental or any other form of human love—Jesus gave up his life for the world.


*[Cosmic Chants by Paramahansa Yogananda: "In this world, Mother, no one can love me. In this world they do not know how to love me. Where is there pure loving love? Where is there truly loving me? There my soul longs to be."] (jt)

* * *

In the universal sense, love is the divine power of attraction in creation that harmonizes, unites, binds together. It is opposed by the force of repulsion, which is the outgoing cosmic energy that materializes creation from the cosmic consciousness of God. Repulsion keeps all forms in the manifested state through maya, the power of delusion that divides, differentiates, and disharmonizes. The attractive force of love counteracts cosmic repulsion to harmonize all creation and ultimately draw it back to God. Those who live in tune with the attractive force of love; achieve harmony with nature and their fellow beings, and are attracted to blissful reunion with God.

* * *

Love gives without expecting anything in return. I never think of anyone in terms of what he can do for me. And I never profess love to someone because he has done something for me. If I didn’t actually feel love, I wouldn’t pretend to give it; and since I feel it, I give it. Love cannot be had for the asking; it comes only as a gift from the heart of another. Be certain of your feeling before you say to anyone, 'I love you'. Once you give your love, it must be forever. Not because you want to be near that person, but because you want perfection for that soul. To wish for perfection for the loved one, and to feel pure joy in thinking of that soul, is divine love; and that is the love of true friendship.

* * *

Love gives joy. We love love because it gives us such intoxicating happiness. So love is not the ultimate; the ultimate is bliss. God is Sat-Chit-Ananda, ever-existing, ever-conscious, ever-new Bliss. We, as souls, are individualized Sat-Chit-Ananda. "From Joy we have come, in Joy we live and have our being, and in that sacred Joy we will one day melt again."[Taittiriya Upanishad 3-6-1]

* * *

Real love is when you are constantly watching the progress of the soul. As soon as you cater to someone’s physical desires and bad habits you are not loving that soul anymore. You are just pleasing that person to avoid ill will. No matter how unpleasant it is to tell a friend that he is wrong, if you say it with love in your heart and stand firm on it, sometimes that person will respect you if you are right. If you are wrong, even then he will know that you did it with sincerity, out of love. (jt)

* * *

Wisdom is a chisel, love is the sandpaper. Man needs intellectuality, but intellect must be tempered with love. When you carving a piece of furniture, you have to smooth it with sandpaper or it will remain rough. Love is the sandpaper that takes away the harshness of intelligence, and smooths your intellectuality.

* * *

True love cannot be bought. To receive love, one must give it freely, without any condition. But instead of following this rule, the insecure person resorts to jealousy. This makes the loved one angry, and thus defeats its very purpose. Jealousy then responds to the anger with a desire to strike back. But anytime one wants thus to harm another, he ultimately hurts himself even more. (jt) God is love, and love is the panacea for human suffering. There is nothing greater than love-God's quality of attraction and unity that is manifested in the soul of every being. (jt)


Excerpts found here




I almost placed this in our Unconditional Love thread, but I thought it belonged better here, since we have been talking about Yogananda.

Thanks again MTC for your gifts of knowledge, inspiration, and love, in all their manifestations.

Amazing quotes Freya.

Yogananda was truly the embodiment of Love. With that said, since you so resonate with his  quotes, it evidences the fact that you also reflect that same Love (via Law of Reflection).

And, thank you as always for your loving words.

Thanks (as always!!!!!) MTC.

I just wanted to share this incredible story from The Autobiography...


She and I hastened into the building; the man was seated on a lecture platform. We soon learned that he was Swami Vivekananda of India.1 After he had given a soul-stirring talk, I went forward to meet him. He smiled on me graciously, as though we were old friends. I was so young that I did not know how to give expression to my feelings, but in my heart I was hoping that he would offer to be my teacher. He read my thought.

"'No, my son, I am not your guru.' Vivekananda gazed with his beautiful, piercing eyes deep into my own. 'Your teacher will come later. He will give you a silver cup.' After a little pause, he added, smiling, 'He will pour out to you more blessings than you are now able to hold.'

"I left Chicago in a few days," Mr. Dickinson went on, "and never saw the great Vivekananda again. But every word he had uttered was indelibly written on my inmost consciousness. Years passed; no teacher appeared. One night in 1925 I prayed deeply that the Lord would send me my guru. A few hours later, I was awakened from sleep by soft strains of melody. A band of celestial beings, carrying flutes and other instruments, came before my view. After filling the air with glorious music, the angels slowly vanished.

"The next evening I attended, for the first time, one of your lectures here in Los Angeles, and knew then that my prayer had been granted."

We smiled at each other in silence.

"For eleven years now I have been your Kriya Yoga disciple," Mr. Dickinson continued. "Sometimes I wondered about the silver cup; I had almost persuaded myself that Vivekananda's words were only metaphorical. But on Christmas night, as you handed me the square box by the tree, I saw, for the third time in my life, the same dazzling flash of light. In another minute I was gazing on my guru's gift which Vivekananda had foreseen for me forty-three years earlier—a silver cup!"