Limiting Beliefs

lunareclipse wrote:I'm personally originally from Estonia but I have been around Scandinavia plenty enough to guarantee that the ratio of hot women to pumped Scandinavian hunks is about 10:1. Majority of people are fair haired and blue eyed, there is not one person with brown eyes in my whole ancestry. I'm slim and 5'11and half and I was maybe 7th tallest girl in my class, so Elsa would be pretty common where I come from. Besides you have something else on your side- originality. The guys in Estonia for example are not attractive and many are alcoholics, even better- there are way more women than men in Estonia altogether, so I have seen plenty of poor ugly old black dudes show up and get a super hot girlfriend just for the fact that they are original and different.

I have Baltic ancestry on both sides and the tall, blonde, blue eyed thing totally skipped my family. Ha, maybe if I went back I'd be quite the sensation as a short, brown eyed, brunette-I'd be exotic!

Hmm, do Baltic and Scandinavian guys like brunettes? I'd be exotic too!

I'm a very very dark brunette, so dark my hair is nearly black... but depending on the light you can also see little red hairs in there, and even some blonde ones, lighter ones, darker ones...



All in all, though, very, very dark, so much so that some people think my hair actually is black.

Actually this brings us to metaphysics.

All my life I've thought my dad's hair was black.
In the photos it's black (to me). These days, still, I think  what non-silvered hairs he has are black. But my mum claims that his hair was always very dark brown, just like mine. I find it hard to believe...  he's always been raven-haired to me. But there is barely any evidence left now...  even the photos...  don't capture everything.

Sometimes I think maybe she's right, and then I think, has my reality actually changed because of what she said?

This is still on topic I hope -- after all it is a limiting belief that a person's hair is a certain colour. We could also go into...

Mary's Room



In philosophy of mind, Mary’s Room is a thought experiment meant to demonstrate the non-physical nature of mental states. It is an example meant to highlight the knowledge argument against physicalism. The example first appears in an article by Frank Jackson, entitled “Epiphenomenal Qualia”, which appears in Philosophical Quarterly 32:127 (1982). (intro excerpted from http://www.philosophy-index.com/jackson/marys-room/ )

Jackson's original example for the Knowledge Argument is as follows:

Mary is a brilliant scientist who is, for whatever reason, forced to investigate the world from a black and white room via a black and white television monitor. She specializes in the neurophysiology of vision and acquires, let us suppose, all the physical information there is to obtain about what goes on when we see ripe tomatoes, or the sky, and use terms like ‘red’, ‘blue’, and so on. She discovers, for example, just which wavelength combinations from the sky stimulate the retina, and exactly how this produces via the central nervous system the contraction of the vocal chords and expulsion of air from the lungs that results in the uttering of the sentence ‘The sky is blue’.… What will happen when Mary is released from her black and white room or is given a color television monitor? Will she learn anything or not? It seems just obvious that she will learn something about the world and our visual experience of it. But then is it inescapable that her previous knowledge was incomplete. But she had all the physical information. Ergo there is more to have than that, and Physicalism is false.

----


What does this do for us? Well I guess we can pose the following questions:

1) What, if anything, does this tell us about limiting beliefs? (probably nothing...sorry)
2) How does Mary's perception and expectation of the world change it? -- she is living in a colourless world... for her, there is no such thing as colour, therefore does colour actually exist at all in Mary's version of reality, or is it only brought into being by her?
3) this is, in philosophy, what they call Qualia -- the things that are beyond simple matter that we still experience. How do qualia impact on our perception of reality/beliefs?

Sorry again for derailing the thread somewhat

***edit to draw to attention certain fact: that isn't me!! just realised it might seem that way to people who don't recognise Eva Green!!

we have roughly the same hair colour, though...mostly (hers changes from time to time)

And please don't let any of this chat about guys and colour take the spotlight off Night - I think she's broken down the whole depression business quite brilliantly, paying due respect to - and perhaps even uniting - both sides of the argument.

@Pantasm,

It seems your main point in the previous couple posts is that you are trying to point this out (in multiple ways with multiple examples)

Phantasm wrote:
You yourself admit that it's impossible to think other thoughts in that drk place.

You're seeing things black and white and I am seeing them as shades all in between. There is no straight up incapability. These thoughts and feelings come in waves, and our response (as lunar wrote) is the change in thought that starts to move along the spectrum. Thoughts, emotions, they are all intertwined and all play off of each other. There is no question to me whether it is thought or emotion, because they are not really separate things.

Do you approach every situation that seems the same, in the exact same way? Is there one process or approach you use that is a template for things alike? When I write a person can be incapable of choosing a better thought, it is in a matter of moments and moments are fleeting. That's why I don't use the words bad day or good day, because that's misleading. A day is full of thousands of moments. Generalizations like someone being incapable of choosing a better thought or having a bit of relief are (sorry but not really) ridiculous. Like I've mentioned before, if 99.9 percent of the time they feel overwhelmed, foggy and powerless, that 0.1% where they feel half a percent less that way, is relief. And that relief, when acknowledged, is huge. To say well yeah in this 3-second time frame, I didn't feel as bad as I did the rest of the day/week/month, that's choosing to be aware that yeah depression is not constant, even in that tiny tiny moment. That's enough to understand LoA and how it functions.

So cop out or not- I say, believe what you like, good sir. I know this is true and effective when the person stops arguing that its not true. Therefore, it works for me and the people I work with. If you disagree, then how does that change the fact that it is effective? I don't dare see anyone as helpless or needing to be saved. I see capability in everyone, and if that capability only shows up for them a couple times a day or week, then that's where we start from. I will not say the depressed person is incapable of anything. With working this way, that deeply depressed person will turn it around and be more capable than they had ever been before depression.

Phantasm, why were all of your examples of depression about how dire it is? Not to minimize anyone's experience but you've presented depression as basically something that can't be cured. Plenty of people experience depression at some point and manage to overcome it. Why don't you remember that and focus instead on those who made it out of the darkness? Again, not trying to dismiss anyone's suffering but this is a LoA forum and you know when you write over and over again how horrible depression is and how hard it is to overcome you know you are just solidifying that reality. Just something to think about.

One of Bashar's best.  Lots about limiting beliefs.  What he covers pertains to a lot of what's being discussed here.  Haha, he even touches on the whole "it's not that simple" thing.  

kazoo wrote:Phantasm, why were all of your examples of depression about how dire it is?  Not to minimize anyone's experience but you've presented depression as basically something that can't be cured.  Plenty of people experience depression at some point and manage to overcome it.  Why don't you remember that and focus instead on those who made it out of the darkness?  Again, not trying to dismiss anyone's suffering but this is a LoA forum and you know when you write over and over again how horrible depression is and how hard it is to overcome you know you are just solidifying that reality.  Just something to think about.

Kazoo summed up here what took me two or three days to try and explain. Thanks kazoo.

kazoo wrote:
I have Baltic ancestry on both sides and the tall, blonde, blue eyed thing totally skipped my family.  Ha, maybe if I went back I'd be quite the sensation as a short, brown eyed, brunette-I'd be exotic!

SelinaM wrote:
Hmm, do Baltic and Scandinavian guys like brunettes? I'd be exotic too!

I'm a very very dark brunette, so dark my hair is nearly black... but depending on the light you can also see little red hairs in there, and even some blonde ones, lighter ones, darker ones...

There are some brunettes there too, just with blue eyes But you guys would still stand out and get a hot guy just because you are different. For example this guy here is a singer and could get any super model but she chooses to have a dark eyed brunette gf cause she's different.

But the thing is that you don't really want to get an Estonian guy, I don't know for sure for Sweden/Finland/Denmark, but the guys in Estonia are ugly, unpleasant and very spoiled. There are so many hot women that they know they can get girls, so they cheat a lot.

Lol I tried to look in the Google for a sample of a typical Estonian guy and the first that came up was this guy

I thought it was funny, cause I know his father. He jokingly asked me to marry him once, marry HIM and not his hot son that is lol.

Ok, just very quickly.

1.



I apologize if I've stepped on anybody's toes, I haven't been quite myself lately and I'm guessing it reflects in my tone. The subject of depression does get me angry I'll admit. So I'm sorry for any offence caused.

2.

A brief reply to kazoo and Armine. Ladies, even I know that there is not just black and white, there can be shades of grey (lol... groan). As Nine Eyes has thoughtfully pointed out, what can we actually do? This is what you two are also really focusing on. What can we actually do? Yes, we can do quite a lot, and no, not every case of depression falls under the heading of treatment-resistant depression. I've been focusing on the dark side of depression, though, precisely because you refuse to see it.

Most of all the attitude that the depressed are responsible for their depression bothers me, because though there are two, or more, sides to every argument and a whole spectrum of grey and off-whites, you yourselves may not really realise that just as thoughts shape our brains, our brains also shape our thoughts. Would you say that someone born with a brain condition such as Asperger's was responsible for it? Would you say that someone with Bipolar Disorder was responsible for their mood cycling?

Simplifier, you say blame is an ugly word, but responsibility seems to me to be just as bad. You say tomato, I say tomato, but it's really the same thing.

The point is - whatever our arguments - yes, we can do something, as Night Eyes says.

[quote=Night Eyes]Mental Health can be an ass... pure and simple.. that person also has to face the fear that this could be a lifelong battle[/quote]

My point, really. You guys talk about it as if it were so simple. It's not. Yes, you can win over depression, but typically you win the battle but not the war. It tends to come back. And as Night said before, we do not choose our awful thoughts, we do not choose to feel awful. Yes, as the Simplifier said, there will be cracks of light always and it should be a question of prising the window open further and further. But with depression, you're likely to have violent gusts of wind that blow the window jammed shut again. What I'm saying is that you don't actually have any control over those gusts of wind, but obviously we disagree. We have a thread, "fighting my own thoughts". Do any of us ever choose those thoughts? Did Jerry Hicks choose his cancer?

But maybe instead of arguing we should instead look for solutions.

Night Eyes wrote:You can research and understand your illness.... with a lot of mental health issues.... Knowledge is power, when you know what it's doing and how it works.... you've taken the power from it and given some, even if it's small.. back to yourself

So this is what I'm actually really driving at. It's important to raise awareness of depression and all that it is. That it isnt something you snap out of. That it isn't something you are "responsible" for (honestly if you tell that to some depressed people with attendant low self-esteem they may even believe you and start to feel guilty and it will exacerbate their self-hatred). Knowledge is power but if the world over people continue to perpetuate the ideas that "oh it isn't that bad really", no, they are not using the LOA to alter the reality of the depressed, they are just making issues worse for the depressed.

So one small step at a time... I just wish that I could convince everyone here that if they shift their view of depression just slightly, to be a little more accommodating, to see these people as victims, not culprits, ... one small step, if we all started to change our perception of depression I think the world would slowly start to change too.

I'm sure Simplifier will say that actually her view of depression gives those suffering it more empowerment, as well as blame (responsibility). Well, I think we can empower people without blaming them (holding them responsible for their own feelings). We can spread the knowledge about depression and the fact that yes it is just as much an illness as the flu or a broken leg, as Night said; we can increase the knowledge of people suffering it and also of those who aren't. That will help.

Speaking of which.

3.

Look at the common cold. Using the LOA, positive thoughts, would you be able to un-believe that you have a cold and simply make it go away?

Nope.

It doesn't matter what limiting beliefs you have, we are spiritual beings but also material ones and a cold must always run its course, even in a divine Yogi.

4.

Lunar, in all truth I'm not actually ugly at all, and have never had troubles attracting the opposite sex. However as you say I do have limiting beliefs there. I get myself into situations where even though they want me I think they'll probably stop wanting me as soon as they get to know me, or I have cynical beliefs that romance inevitably ends in people getting sick of each other, etc. We've been saying that in some cases change can occur quickly but I wonder really how quickly I could shake off all these limiting beliefs, because most of them are drilled into my subconscious mind and are likely to stay there for a good while.

5.

Thanks.

Phantasm, I did try to stress that I'm not trying to make light of someone's suffering with depression.  I understand it's very real and that it sucks big time.  I also understand that many cases are treatment resistant and people do try different things that didn't work.

I am not going to ever look at someone as a victim.  Again, remember this is a LoA forum.  Labeling someone as a victim helps them how?  It's just going to reinforce their feelings of helplessness.  I don't want someone to feel more helpless.  I want them to feel empowered!  

We may not always choose our thoughts, but the very first step is to focus on the ones we do choose.  And in this instance you are choosing to reinforce the idea that depression is extremely difficult to overcome.  Do you see how this plays into those automatic thoughts you aren't in control of?  

Another Bashar video:



(And watch the one I posted above too, it has a ton of good stuff...)

I don't feel like my toes have been stepped on.  I have no problem with what you are presenting because it makes for a good discussion and brings the real world practice into focus instead of just theory.  The only problem I have is again, you're reinforcing negative beliefs every time you focus on the difficulties instead of what you want instead.I hope you aren't feeling ganged up on or anything.  Just trying to get the light shined on the solution, not the problem.

PS  Thanks for the sweet little bunny!  Somehow deep down I knew you were a Thumper fan!

I don't think anyone is making light of depression or even suggesting that you can or should snap out of it (as you put it). I also think that my views are being skewed here, but it is what it is. No, blame and responsibility are not the same. Who is to say what my intention is behind the word... the writer or the reader? The reader may take offense to it and translate it as harsh because of their own perspective, when the writer has no intention for blaming anyone, because self-blame is what deepens depression possibly quicker than anything else. I back the opposite theory- that blame is either the root cause or the accelerator for mental and physical ailments. Responsibility is empowerment, knowledge, and "taking back your life". Seeing what may have led up to the state, acknowledging that no, you didn't consciously choose this for yourself, and understanding how it can be healed.

I think that's about all I have to say here for now. Nothing is worth pushing. I don't agree with depression being referred to as even possibly a lifelong struggle or battle, and I firmly know that even the use of those words are part of the resistance to mental wellness. The person struggling is not going to heal any quicker or easier by telling them that this depression is now part of their identity and they might have to carry it with them forever. No way. The true them is vibrant and full of vitality, and it can be restored.

Yes, depression is a struggle. Yes, it's shitty. Yes, it is painful and takes over your life for possibly many long years and you feel powerless and alone and makes you withdraw from the rest of the world. Yes, a couple dirty dishes to wash or having to get a pen to write something down or having to walk across the room can be an overwhelming, terrifying experience bringing you to the ground in tears. Nobody here is saying depression is not painful and does not feel hopeless. It is agony. It hurts like constantly being punched in the stomach all day long and then getting ridiculed for being in pain. This is exactly why I would not tell a depressed person that it can be a lifelong battle. I instead show them the light at the end of the tunnel and sooner or later they will be able to see it themselves. Letting someone know that they can dissolve depression and the seemingly strangling, life-sucking hold it has over them is not the same as blaming them and saying "You are making this up, your suffering is an illusion and you are wasting your potential. Get up and be normal, you sissy. Get a job. This is all your fault. You must have wanted this."

Ok so yeah. Thank you for the discussion guys. I seem to not have the popular vote here. I'd like to not push these viewpoints anymore and instead keep connecting with the people who need it and heal through it. This has really taught me (with good timing) to attract and connect to more people who in the given moment will benefit from what I know to be true rather than trying to convince anyone who lives by another truth. That is only a distraction from progression. Like kazoo said about herself, I don't see anyone as victims, either- and that's because we understand Law. Before I would have been too modest to be so bold enough to say that, but you know what? I do know the Law and I give credit to the universe for aligning things in a way where I can embrace that and use it for good. Like my boyfriend says, f*ck it. F*ck limiting beliefs and helplessness. There is way too much good in the world to not believe in healing and prosperity and unconditional love. I used to think it was arrogant to feel like I know a lot about something, but now I know it is more arrogant to think that we do not know when we do, to think that we are incapable of anything, while we are given such power and ability. With all the good in the world, with all the opportunities for progression, we sit and argue who is to blame for depression.



*This is not to discredit other schools of thought. I appreciate everyone'es point of view and everything has its place in the universe. Nothing would exist if it was not needed and did not serve a purpose.

Awww Armine i don't think you have the unpopular view at all, i do actually see both sides of this, and think there's some very valid points from everyone.

i think my lifelong battle might have been taken the wrong way though, i didn't mean the person will have depression forever or never come out of it, i do believe its possible, just not easy, i just meant that it might lurk in the back of the mind and come out to play during hard times, there is a lot that can be done for relapse prevention though.

but yes perhaps we should move on from this now, its a very emotive subject and perhaps everyone will have to agree to disagree

Yeah, it got frustrating though, knowing what I know and having been through it and knowing the gentle solution and then having to prove my point. It's like alright, you want to believe that suffering is permanent and healing is nearly impossible, go ahead. (to whomever insists)

It's true that some people sometimes insist on things and as much as we know we have the simple (not always easy) solution, it's just not in their awareness because they're too busy focusing on the problem and how bad it is and how detrimental it is. I know how impossible it seemed to me then and how in hindsight the basis was simple like Bashar clearly outlined in the above vid. So yeah...

Let it go, let it go said Elsa. So I will. The more I insist that it's simple, the more resistance I'm building around here. It's complicated people! Don't even bother trying to heal! It's for nothing! You will never be happy again! Look at the statistics! You cannot help yourself! You are powerless!

I lost my post.

I'm sincerely sorry Simplifier for upsetting you, maybe it seemed hypocritical that I began my post with an apology and then went into it all again but I guess we both probably feel like it would be just as easy to make a brick wall see our point of view.

I guess Tim Minchin really was prophetic, nobody's changing their mind on this. However I can assure you that I respect your viewpoints, even the ones I disagree with. I know you're coming from a place of compassion and experience.

We share the opinion, all of us, that something has to be done about depression, and that's the main thing. Since you are obviously out there in the world actually helping people then that makes you actually useful where I am not. I educate people about death and dying but from a research perspective, I am not a bereavement counsellor or anything like that, so you do more good in the world than me. That you got through our thread getting angry only once while I was ranting the whole time makes you the bigger man (figuratively speaking).

I appreciate it. Before I even read your post I was actually referring to you and Kazoo as being currently upmost in my mind as people I admire on this forum, for your graceful forbearance with someone disagreeing with you like this. Again I apologize for my tone, I'm not severely depressed at the moment but have been having breakdowns and my personal life is not what it should be. I guess therefore I am seeing this almost literally from the point of view of someone dealing with some very sticky emotions and no, it does not feel like these feelings were something I chose. They came. They're bad. I can survive, I've survived worse.

I do not agree with "we are responsible and chose this" or think it's helpful,but it is true that my extreme arguments (prompted by frustration that you would not even begin to see my point of view) may be closer to the flawed "learned helplessness" model than is necessary.

Taking blame and responsibility out of it, of course teaching people that they can change for the better is useful, necessary, life-saving. No, it isn't their fault that they are depressed, but they need to be reminded that there is light when the window is jammed shut, that they are not helpless even though they did not cause the situation.

You speak powerfully and know what you're talking about. We still disagree on the responsibility but so long as the depressed patient has help that's the main thing. What I worry about is people who do not have the help and who are told, in passing, it's your own responsibility. That doesn't help obviously. But I can see that you do help.

So thank you. For the discussion but most importantly for making the world a better place.

Peace out on this one. Next time let's debate something less touchy for both of us.

Lolll Phantasm compliments certainly loosen my tension and frustration. Anyway, I do see your point of view and that's why I sympathize with you, knowing that you do not need to feel upset from seeing people suffer in depression. At least, not for long. Identifying suffering is a prompt for solutions, and an opportunity to help us clearly see what we prefer for ourselves or that person. The universe is constantly moving and what we see as being stuck isn't really stuck-ness but repeated motion.

I don't know about brick walls, but I did write that I wasn't trying to convince you, but maybe I was. I just don't see how being insistently bothered by someone's suffering is conducive to the solution.

I'm sure you help many more people than you're giving yourself credit for, because before someone can heal, they want to know that there are people who believe in what they are going through and that it is in fact, that sucky. But linger on it and to try and force a change? You mentioned earlier how do we find the people who are sort of depressed but haven't spiraled yet? Well, we can't find them. They need to be educated about it in high school, where many cases start. Teachers and parents should be aware of symptoms and signs and have open communication with each other.

In this developed society, we should be able to drop the stigmas and if all of society doesn't want to drop it, then one by one it will be shifted. I had plenty of symptoms (dropping out of all my extracurricular activities, losing touch with friends, dropping grades, no more interest in things I loved...) and even friends who had been through it, but nobody told me hey, maybe you're depressed. Instead of focusing on "how to know if your friend is suicidal", it's probably more useful to teach "how to know if your friend is depressed". That way, it wouldn't get to the point where they are suicidal. This can be approached a million different ways, but there is no one size fits all solution.

Of course I had to get in more words. I'm not usually this heated about this topic, because working with someone who is deeply depressed is actually easier than chatting with you, Phantasm. You have that anger about it that makes you vocal and demonstrative. Depression sufferers who are on that lower frequency have already given up in many ways, so they don't fight what I'm saying- they don't totally believe it at first, but they don't have that hard resistance to it except at certain turning points where they are shifting their frequencies. Then they fight like you're doing, and that makes me happy because that means they're a step up from complacency.

Like Night says, let's agree to disagree. I'll read what you guys have to say of course, but I think I'll consider this the close to my input

Armine... Please take this in the "light" spirit in which it is intended, but...  Perhaps I do not need to feel upset from seeing people suffering from depression...   and you also do not need to feel upset from having me disagree with you.

Agree to disagree? I have to disagree about disagreeing sometimes. This:

The Simplifier wrote:You mentioned earlier how do we find the people who are sort of depressed but haven't spiraled yet? Well, we can't find them. They need to be educated about it in high school, where many cases start. Teachers and parents should be aware of symptoms and signs and have open communication with each other.

In this developed society, we should be able to drop the stigmas and if all of society doesn't want to drop it, then one by one it will be shifted. I had plenty of symptoms (dropping out of all my extracurricular activities, losing touch with friends, dropping grades, no more interest in things I loved...) and even friends who had been through it, but nobody told me hey, maybe you're depressed. Instead of focusing on "how to know if your friend is suicidal", it's probably more useful to teach "how to know if your friend is depressed". That way, it wouldn't get to the point where they are suicidal.

This. Publish this please. Do something with it. If you aren't already. Take up this thought and use it, promote it, act on it. This is the whole point we've been dancing around, trying to "get" each other's words when the truth was right under us both the whole time.

Yeah, words are powerful. I still hate the "they are responsible" line and think it does no good. (I think brick walls are actually less stubborn than me. Cos you can knock a brick wall down. )

BUT deep down I think we agree, so I really disagree with you; so it is less a case of agreeing to disagree about depression and more a case of disagreeing about our agreement.

Thanks, again, for the talk Armine. If you're not totally sick of me I'd be interested in talking with you, kazoo, Night, Lunar, and anybody else interested about changing habits/limiting beliefs next up. But I am also happy to go with the flow whatever that may be.

Phantasm wrote:Perhaps I do not need to feel upset from seeing people suffering from depression...   and you also do not need to feel upset from having me disagree with you.

Yeah, I had noticed the hypocrisy there and I think I gained something from that (including how passionate I am about this topic and how stupid it is to get frustrated, esp when the underlying belief is the same). This conversation was necessary for me. Maybe I'm meant for work that is beyond the scope I imagined. You know when this occurred to me? Right now when my computer restarted in the middle of my replying to this and my mind wandered and drifted to possibilities. I wouldn't call any projects "depression awareness" though. It would be "well-being awareness"

And then when I am doing a speaking gig, I will end it with "I'd like to thank Phantasm". Then no one will know what I'm talking about and it will confirm to them that I'm nuts

Thanks!

Back for only one hour and only to answer the last point Kazoo raised here, during our dialog, as this is probably the most important questions on this thread.

So, on a practical level, how do you suggest we handle the unintended manifestations?  It can't just be a lot of self talk like "My cat's not sick, that's just an illusion.  She doesn't need to go to the vet" or "I don't have to pay those bills, those bills are just a painful dream!"  It would be great if we could simply dismiss troubles that way but we know we can't.  I guess I am asking for specific responses to these negative experiences so that we experience them less often?  (Assuming that asking to never experience those kinds of things is a reach at this level...)  While we can tell ourselves of course our overall happiness isn't diminished by the painful experiences we'd still prefer to avoid them as much as possible.

This may take an entire book to adequately answer, needless to say, or to generally clarify how to put all this knowledge in practice. Practically speaking, however, there is only one simple and even well-known principle that we should always remember in my humble opinion: Every change must start within. Like it or not, we cannot change the external world. We never change the external world. We only change our internal world—beliefs, definitions, views, values, feelings, attitudes, behavior—and only when we change internally will the world outside inevitably change. Again: inevitably. The only reason our world or our circumstances and conditions remain the same is that we, for various reasons, remain the same. In fact, even when we don't like it, we still refuse and resist the change more than we think we do. We rather hold onto our circumstances no matter how dire.

Some for example have a victim mindset and they therefore "need" these circumstances because they feed their "noble victim" scenario. Others, especially those who have spent all their life in a state of, say, lack and poverty, or illness and pain, are also very likely to "resist" any change in their life. Although they don't really have the victim attitude, their lack or pain has become an integral part of their "personal story" in general—of their "self-definition" and "persona," which we usually mistake for our "identity" itself. They thus end up unconsciously doing all they can to rather perpetuate their circumstances, in order to protect their identity or existence itself. 

Had they fully understood and believed that this whole world is but a "projection" and that their current "story" and "persona" has nothing to do with their identity or with who they really are, they'd have definitely hastened to fix their life or at least been more receptive to the change. But they don't really believe it. They're rather "accustomed" to the lack or the illness in their life and, in many cases, this lack or illness rather feels like an "old friend."


Now on the practical level, when you say, for example, "My cat's not sick, that's just an illusion. She doesn't need to go to the vet," the cat won't readily get healed in response, of course. But this is not because your words are not true, or because this approach is not "practical." On the contrary, your words/thoughts are more powerful, more healing and more creative than you probably imagine. Rather, the reason your words fail is that you want to change the external world while you are still the same person internally. Merely saying "That's just an illusion," in other words, doesn't mean you are yourself free of this illusion. You are still deluded. You still harbor the same fears, doubts, resistance and attachments—even including the very desire to have the cat healthy instead of sick. Similarly, when you say, again just for example, "I don't have to pay those bills, those bills are just a painful dream," you're definitely still dreaming—the reason you even describe it as a "painful" dream. And because you're still dreaming, you'll still have to pay those bills.  

So it's not a matter of practicality, or a question of application vs. theorization. I believe Jesus was very practical when he, for example, fed the masses with a few loaves and fishes, or when he said, "The girl is just asleep," not dead. But Jesus was a "free" man, with no delusions whatsoever, and was fully awake to the dream: "I'm not of this world." He was aware of his Divinity and of his Oneness with the Father. His "self talk," as you put it, therefore, was not like ours—mere empty, wishful words. Rather, words that instantly heal, materialize, or reconstruct reality itself. "When Jesus fed the multitude," J. S. Goldsmith explains, "it was his consciousness of abundance that appeared as loaves and fishes. When he healed the sick, it was his feeling of the divine Presence that appeared as health, strength, and harmony."


Therefore, the real problem arises with your/our very thinking:

It would be great if we could simply dismiss troubles that way but we know we can't. I guess I am asking for specific responses to these negative experiences so that we experience them less often? 

. . . . . . . . .

. . . . . . . . .

It would be great if we could simply dismiss troubles that way but we know we can't. I guess I am asking for specific responses to these negative experiences so that we experience them less often?  

The "troubles," the "negative" experiences, are only in our mind, as I hinted last time. It's not the "experience" but how you "interpret" the experience. Truth is, nothing is really "negative" at all, and there is absolutely no such thing as "evil" in this world. Yes, some experiences may be destructive, painful, limiting or ugly, and we therefore call them "negative." However, because Life is ever evolving, constantly unfolding, expanding, growing and thriving, they're not really "destructive," but rather "transformative." Every ugliness is a dawn of more beauty. Every limitation is a prophecy of more freedom. Every tight cocoon is a promise of a marvelous butterfly. And every pain is indeed a pain of "giving birth," of "delivery" of a new life, and of transformation into a better state of existence and of awareness.

For example: A man just lost his job. Is this "negative"? It's not, definitely—nor is it even positive. But "I just lost my only source of income," his mind would scream. "It's hard to find another job." "What the hell should I do now?" "Ugh! How the f*** will I pay all those bills?" etc. etc.

With all such agonizing questions, worries and fears in his mind, the experience becomes literally "negative" and he truly suffers. His suffering, however, is not because "losing a job" is inherently negative, but because this is how HE interpreted this experience and how he "fueled" it with his negative thoughts and emotions. If he instead "thought" that losing his job was rather a "gift" from heaven to spare him a serious problem or accident imminent in his workplace, or to land him in a much better and more lucrative job somewhere else, he wouldn't find it "negative" at all or ever suffer because of it.

So nothing is really negative in the world; negativity is all in the mind. And because it's in the mind, it shows up in the world.

While we can tell ourselves of course our overall happiness isn't diminished by the painful experiences we'd still prefer to avoid them as much as possible.

Exactly. It's because we only "tell ourselves," not truly and genuinely experience, that our happiness isn't, and can't, be diminished by the painful experiences. In fact, they won't even be or feel "painful experiences" if our happiness isn't really diminished by them, will they? Ironically, it's only then that we'll be able to "treat" (not avoid) these painful experiences, because only then will there be no "resistance" blocking our will and manifestations. That's how we can do it, ma'am: Positive or negative, we "smile" to our mind either way. We playfully say, "Here we go again, sweetie," fully aware it's just another game and another illusion. Even when what we don't prefer occurs, we immediately charge it with our best thoughts and fuel it with our best expectations. We never allow a "dream" to shake our "stillness," disturb our peace or diminish our happiness.  

I guess I am asking for specific responses to these negative experiences…

1) First of all stop "judging." Don't judge anything or anyone. If necessary, remove the word "negative" altogether from your vocabulary. Your experiences are either positive or transformative. If it feels good, it's positive and constructive, building up in the same direction. If it feels bad, it's transformative, and it's a "message" that your energies and consciousness have been stuck, or have exhausted the current phase, and that Life therefore is now opening up new horizons and carrying you into a whole new dimension where you can better "discover" and "express" who you really are.

2) If transformative, don't ruin your transition or prolong it and make it more painful by thinking all "wrong" thoughts. Don't let your fears, doubts or frustrations take over; all of which are only the product of ignorance and delusion. Our thoughts on the other hand are indeed so powerful they can temporarily hinder the grand movement of Life itself. But this will only result in more suffering—and will only express our foolishness, like a caterpillar refusing to get out of the cocoon.

For example, you can attract your ex back, that's for sure. But if he happened to be just a "phase" and it was time for the true and lasting love of your life to show up, your insisting blindly on him back—and, worse, your feeling miserable and lonely because of his absence—will only and needlessly prolong the transition. You'll thus neither get your ex back nor meet the love of your life around the corner. Worse yet, by the time you finally give up, probably due to frustration, there could be a whole new "setting" of the universe in general; Life in its grand movement could be by then heading in a totally different direction, and your true love may not be still waiting anymore. So after all your "freewill" is intact and uncompromised, and you just changed your destiny altogether.

3) Instead, charge all that happens with your best thoughts, feelings and expectations. Many, for example, simply submit to the will of a "Higher Power," or totally and wholeheartedly "trust God," and therefore never really suffer or feel troubled or even concerned—and in response it seems God almost never fails them either. It's OK if we so choose to believe. What actually happens, however, is that they—through this "agency" of God—fuel their experiences with hope, trust and love, instead of fear or worry or doubt. They therefore almost always get positive results, because even if the experience were transformative and therefore inevitably painful, their attitude would result in a much faster transition, thus much faster revealing of the positive outcome that every transformative experience necessarily implies.

. . . . . . . . .

. . . . . . . . .

Sorry for a lengthy post. I just knew I wouldn't be back any time soon and I had to answer that old post, at least for our newcomers not to think we are only theorizing here—although as hopefully clear by now theory and application go hand in hand in this field.  

I also wish I could comment on some excellent explanations from Bashar and others, but suffice it for now to only refer to these three videos in the end:


1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAKngU5cvZo
This is one of Bashar's most important videos in my opinion. I'll even attach it at the end of this post so that we cab watch it right here (although I'm sure many of you have already done before). I'd especially highlight his words: Paradoxically, it has to be alright for you to get sick in order for you to never get sick again. And of course: So what if you get sick and die? . . . - And I may die but it's OK. - Of course it's OK; and when it's OK you probably won't die!


2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0atOJsrA6jM
This is yet another beautiful dialog with a very fine lady where Bashar finally reveals the "Secret Mantra." Also why the problem is our negative reactions to certain scenarios, not the scenarios themselves.


3) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vej9lMZ7uRY
Finally in this video (audio) I mean only the last three minutes or so where Bashar mentions that very subtle or "critical" point as he put it—that we, having really chagrined, must behave differently toward reality even if it looks the same as it did before (or we haven't really changed yet). My reaction to "The cat is sick," for example, or "The bills are coming," must first change to be that of someone who already, say, trusts this is quite easy to treat, or genuinely believes it's no big deal and they can easily pay every bill.


Take care everyone and see you soon.

Lotus, everything you've outlined is truth. So many things I can relate to and understand and it is truly a matter of being aware of what perspective we are seeing through as our "self". In other words, as Neville would point out, are you thinking/feeling OF your desire, or FROM your desire? That makes all the difference and knowing how loyal the universe is to our vibration, it is a fun and beautiful experience.

Like you wrote already, you can't just say "my cat is fine"... you must give life to that reality by perceiving it that way, feeling from it. It must be true on the inside (and yes it is possible, not impossible), and then the physical reflections change to mirror that new perception.

We can preach this day and night and it is those who have had a glimpse of it themselves who will understand your words as you have written them. I wish for everyone here to know what that's like.

In your words, Lotus:

Lotus ♥ wrote:although as hopefully clear by now theory and application go hand in hand in this field

This is why metaphysics as only philosophy is misleading. It is the most practical science I can imagine.

The Simplifier wrote:We can preach this day and night and it is those who have had a glimpse of it themselves who will understand your words as you have written them. I wish for everyone here to know what that's like.

We live in what I call a "mental loop." The mind believes what the "senses" perceive. These sensual impressions or data are the raw material of belief. In fact "beliefs" in a well known definition are "representations of reality." However, what we believe is also what we "project" as reality, which we then "perceive" again through the senses—hence the "loop." The process therefore goes like this:


A vicious circle, indeed. We do live in this loop, and the mind is constantly reinforcing both reality and itself (otherwise "physical reality" wouldn't be that stable, but would rather become "fantasy" literally speaking). In this context, how the heck can I believe "the cat is fine," for example, if what I perceive is that she's sick; terribly sick even? How can I believe "I'm wealthy" or "healthy" or even "tall" if the very report of my senses is unquestionably stating just the opposite? We simply can't do this, scientifically speaking. We can wish, imagine, visualize, fantasize, but we can't really believe it. Asking someone to believe what contradicts their very senses is like asking them to commit "mental suicide"—and even if that was possible, it wouldn't be a "belief" then; it'd be a "hallucination."

So how to break the "mental loop" and still remain sane and in tune with everyone's common reality? Is this even possible, let alone attainable?


It is possible, attainable and, dare I say, even easy. It only requires us to learn to "reverse" the usual movement of the mind: Instead of always moving outward (toward the "senses" and their reports from the outer world), now the mind will "turn around" or "look back" and instead move inward. But what really lies "inward," beyond the mind? What are we supposed to find or meet or see when the mind looks back and moves inward? It's Who We Are, finally. We are "caught up" in the mental loop, but we are NOT really the mind, are we? So it's the true Self, finally. The Spirit. The Source. The First Cause beyond the cosmos. God Himself within. 

The ancient called this reversing of the mind movement: "The withdrawal of the mind into the heart." Beautiful, isn't it?

From this entirely new "position," not just "perspective," also with our realization of the true Self, even if that was just a "glimpse" of realization as you Armine rightly put it, it's not even a matter of "belief" anymore. It's a matter of "knowing," because the Self, who you really are, is pure Knowing—Infinite Consciousness. And this Knowing, indeed, is the First Cause itself. Nothing, absolutely, precedes it. What God knows, just IS. Instantly IS. It IS because and ONLY because God knows it.

So now I "know" rather than "believe." I'm not struggling to "plant" an evasive belief in the stubborn mind anymore, I'm "beyond" the mind and even beyond "reality" altogether. I AM infinite Consciousness, Himself. I AM, genuinely, and literally, the Knowing Who just knows everything into being. "The cat is fine," therefore, is not for the reason to validate, the senses to prove, or the mind to accept. Rather, it's a "Statement" of Truth, what Truth itself is made of, and the primary cause of the whole creation. It's an "existential" statement, infinitely powerful and infinitely peaceful; coming not from the deceptive and doubtful mind anymore but from the timeless, spaceless, awakening Spirit itself.

. . .

Sorry I forgot to state, this is the process that some, the yogis for example, consciously and intentionally practice. Yet we all do it unintentionally. With every "leap of faith" we take, for instance, we do "withdraw the mind into the heart." With every trust we put in God or any higher or divine Power, within or without, regardless of the proof of the the senses, we do reverse the mind inward instead of outward. We then call it "faith" or even belief, speak of the Power of Belief, but it isn't really, accurately speaking. It's much deeper and more profound and powerful than that, as above clarified. It's Knowing rather than believing, and it's an act of Self-realization, of Spirit-actualization, beyond the realm of the mind altogether. ♥

Lotus posted: " We live in what I call a "mental loop." The mind believes what the "senses" perceive. These sensual impressions or data are the raw material of belief. In fact "beliefs" in a well known definition are "representations of reality." However, what we believe is also what we "project" as reality, which we then "perceive" again through the senses—hence the "loop." The process therefore goes like this:

Perceive > Believe > Project > Perceive > . . .

A vicious circle, indeed. We do live in this loop, and the mind is constantly reinforcing both reality and itself (otherwise "physical reality" wouldn't be that stable, but would rather become "fantasy" literally speaking). In this context, how the heck can I believe "the cat is fine," for example, if what I perceive is that she's sick; terribly sick even? How can I believe "I'm wealthy" or "healthy" or even "tall" if the very report of my senses is unquestionably stating just the opposite? We simply can't do this, scientifically speaking. We can wish, imagine, visualize, fantasize, but we can't really believe it. Asking someone to believe what contradicts their very senses is like asking them to commit "mental suicide"—and even if that was possible, it wouldn't be a "belief" then; it'd be a "hallucination."

So how to break the "mental loop" and still remain sane and in tune with everyone's common reality? Is this even possible, let alone attainable?


It is possible, attainable and, dare I say, even easy. It only requires us to learn to "reverse" the usual movement of the mind: Instead of always moving outward (toward the "senses" and their reports from the outer world), now the mind will "turn around" or "look back" and instead move inward. But what really lies "inward," beyond the mind? What are we supposed to find or meet or see when the mind looks back and moves inward? It's Who We Are, finally. We are "caught up" in the mental loop, but we are NOT really the mind, are we? So it's the true Self, finally. The Spirit. The Source. The First Cause beyond the cosmos. God Himself within.

The ancient called this reversing of the mind movement: "The withdrawal of the mind into the heart." Beautiful, isn't it? ( end of post )


Lotus, so, by reversing the process of thought, instead of going outward with the senses, which is what we all do normally, we cause our thoughts to go inward?

And, by going inward, we discover who we really are? And, from this perspective, we come to know infinite consciousness?

rodan wrote:Lotus, so, by reversing the process of thought, instead of going outward with the senses, which is what we all do normally, we cause our thoughts to go inward?

No, we rather stop thinking altogether. That's why I said we all do it unintentionally sometimes. When you say for example, "I trust God" or chant with the Psalmist, "The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear?" do you keep "thinking" after such declaration, or do you rather stop thinking and submit to the infinite power and wisdom of God? You simply stop thinking. And because you stop thinking, your mind "withdraws" into the heart. It just stops the chatter and steps aside for the heart to take over.

Now let this be clear, my friend: We ourselves do nothing. NOTHING at all. Every miracle, every manifestation, every transformation, is done by God through us. By the Father through the Son. Our objective, therefore, is not to perform a miracle ourselves; it's only to reveal and allow God to perform it through us.

It's the same meaning we find in Rumi's beautiful quote on love:

Your task is not to seek for love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.

Just replace "love" with "peace" or "power" or "abundance" or "wisdom" or. . . or just God—it will always apply. Our task therefore is not to be God, or even seek God, but "merely to seek and find all the barriers within ourselves that we have built against Him." Once we remove the barriers and veils, He'll instantly shine forth through us, because this is who we ARE in the first place. We are not humans aspiring to be God; we are God deluded into believing we are humans.

And, by going inward, we discover who we really are? And, from this perspective, we come to know infinite consciousness?

Yes, but you won't necessarily recognize it as the true Self or "who we really are." It depends on your belief system: Christian mystics, for example, also Muslim sufis, still recognize it as the Glory of God. Buddhists, who believe there's no Self whatsoever, still experience the "Nirvana" state of consciousness. So in all cases, yes you'll finally touch the Truth, witness Infinity itself, see the Face of God, regardless of how your "mind" may later interpret this indescribable, unspeakable experience. ♥