"Attachment" and "Letting Go"

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Today I'm back to this beautiful thread. Another piece of profound introspection here that I really enjoyed; thanks to Kazoo and all who shared, and please forgive my late responses in general. Just my two cents anyway:

I definitely agree with you—all of you. I only have a few reservations about the terminology used, perhaps one reason this topic is forever ambiguous and confusing. For example, I really loved what Posay said, and I totally agree with her. However, when she wrote, "You can be 100% attached to your desire and still get it," I believe the word "attached" was not very accurate here. Actually this word was the reason Kazoo, a few posts later, had to classify "attachment" into two new categories or forms, positive and negative: "I think when attachment is discussed it's usually referring to the negative form of attachment. The positive attachments aren't a problem!" (To which Posay, a little witch who seems to always take everyone her way, replied, "Yes, positive attachment is wonderful," and gave us the happy queen face "


In my opinion, however, there is no such thing as "positive" attachment. It was only out of her decency, I'm aware, that Kazoo came up with this new category of attachment to harmonize all opinions. Yet attachment is always negative, because attachment always implies its opposite—aversion. Whenever we have attachment, we inevitably have aversion. The moment I attach to a specific desire or outcome, is the same moment I necessarily hate and resist whatever/whoever prevents its manifestation. This "hate" and "resistance" are the expression of that aversion that always comes hand in hand with attachment.

That's why I agree with Posay's and Kazoo's conclusions, though. I may desire, but I don't have to be attached—neither to the object of desire nor to the act of desiring itself. As one Buddhist monk once put it, "I detach, but the rose would still smell sweet."

Attachment, ALWAYS, is a product of "ignorance" as the ancient sages taught. Attachment is caused by an "illusion" that happiness lies in this or that object. I thus get attached to the object, unaware that happiness can never be found in any whatsoever. For example, I "desired" to have a better forum, and here we are, in what we call Le Cafe, where I, moreover, put so much time and effort, and still "desire" for it to be better, bigger, etc. The illusion is thus born, and I get attached to Le Cafe. I get to think it's the cause of my current "happiness," that I'd feel unhappy if it didn't grow and succeed, therefore I also get to "resist" or even "hate" whatever takes away from its success, quality or popularity.


Attachment, therefore, is the real cause of our miseries in life, all of them; and it's NOT the same as desire. You desire whatever you desire, but you keep either way happy and in peace, because you're no longer "ignorant" or "deluded" or "confused," rather fully aware where your only true and lasting happiness comes from. It comes only from within, and once found, "everything is perfect." The world keeps the same, but it's we who change and have a different view and attitude toward life. We thus desire, even act, but never attach. We thus become masters of this game.

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One more comment on Adi's post here:

There is just one thing and one thing only.
What do you want and how strongly focused are you on what you want.

True, but why are most people not focused on what they want? Because they simply lack mind control. Nobody can ever succeed, in any walk of life, without a certain level of mind control. Nobody ever can do that, LOA or not LOA. Mind control is the first "condition" of achievement, without which we can never succeed. That's why only few in every age who really succeed. On the other hand, mind control can take us all the way down, or rather up, to the level of miraculous feats and supernatural powers. Yet despite such a glorious promise, most people still seem unable to focus or practice mind control. Why?

This, my dear Adi, is the reason we go learn the "esoteric wisdom" you today dismiss and just think we don't need.

You don't need all this esoteric wisdom that noone understands (that also include even the people who are teaching this)

Yes, no one understands it because it's "esoteric," remember? Actually it's not for everyone. It's too precious to be for everyone. It's "inaccessible" to the masses. It's for only those who truly appreciate it. And those who do of course understand.

There we finally learn why we can't focus or practice mind control. Very simple indeed. It's one and only one reason: so long as we get moved and are controlled by the Pleasure-Pain impulses and stimulants, we cannot practice mind control. Period.

Remember when you were a child and had to just sit down and study so that you may have answers to give in your immanent exam? That was an act of mind control. Every act of mind control involves a sacrifice of pleasure. So you had to just sit there on your books and to willingly sacrifice every other possible pleasure out there. No friends. No movies. No Internet. Not even phone calls. Just study, and focus. THIS is how you succeeded.

Twenty or thirty years later, you still have this challenge almost on a daily basis. From waking up early in the morning despite our feeling lazy in the bed and just wishing to sleep a bit more, all that way down to how perfectly we've done our tasks and jobs along the day, we have to daily practice mind control, sacrifice some pleasures here and there, and only those of us who do it and stick to it are those who succeed.


In "esoteric wisdom," they use a nice analogy here: If you are a master, but your servant brings you daily some drugs and stuff so you spend the night together smoking and enjoying, you won't be his master anymore. He'll be the true master over you. You won't even be able to dismiss him. Now addicted, you'll rather crave that stuff he used to bring every night for you.

Similarly, we lose mastery over our mind because we get addicted to the "pleasures" this "servant" brings for us daily through the "senses." We thus end up addicted, forever craving those pleasures we found in, say, that food, that drink, that nightclub, that woman, that car, that place, that website..... Masters we think we are, but in truth we are only slaves to our mind and senses.


You, Adi, in the end, are a very good perhaps even rare example of those who practice self discipline and mind control, and are tough enough to immediately sacrifice any pleasure if you thought it'd hinder your progress. One thing I really love and "respect" about you. But please, my friend, don't mess again with the esoteric wisdom or the real teachers upstairs.

Thanks for the addition to the thread Lotus!

Yes, the terminology IS getting people confused! People saying "I was attached and I still got that thing I wanted" and then go on to describe what happened and it doesn't sound like "attachment" as I understand the meaning as far as it pertains to the LoA.

I really like what you are saying about resistance, it being that feeling or emotion, I guess, that (however wrongly) you direct toward what you perceive standing between yourself and the object that you expect to bring you happiness?

I think that illusion you are talking about confuses people as well. When people discover LoA they get excited because they are told that they can have whatever it is they want. Then they are told that the key is learning to be happy without that thing!

I understand where you are coming from, happiness is indeed an inside job. But like I said, a lot of people are drawn in by the idea of using LoA to get "stuff" not necessarily in learning how to be happy without it, and not understanding that's how you get all of the stuff you wanted in the end anyway.

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Yes, you got what I meant perfectly, Kazoo. This resistance, even if not so apparent, is the only reason we don't manifest according to at least one school/model (Lester Levenson's in particular).

But the concept here expands to include every negative feeling not just those we have toward what we perceive as standing between us and our desires. (Every negative feeling relating to the fulfillment of our desire or the lack thereof, I mean). This all adds up to our resistance and just hinders manifestation. For example, I desire a Mercedes, but if I hate my present Ford or Volvo, this is resistance. I desire my love back, but if I deny my being without him/her and feel sad and lonely for that, this is resistance.
 
As well known, all such negative feelings are pure energy. The non-Neville schools therefore came up with the "let go" concept and practice, just to dissipate this energy and clear the way up for manifestation. (The Neville schools, on the other hand, didn't need this step, because they (Neville, Jesus, etc), based on faith and belief to the level of certainty, assume a constant presence or invocation of the "state desired," in which there are no negative feelings/energy to dissipate in the first place).

So in conclusion there are two major sources of resistance: Resistance against all that we perceive as opposing to our desire (although it might actually be part of its manifestation), and resistance against the present reality where our desires are not yet realized. Both are expressed as negative feelings, apparent or hidden, and both come from our "attachments"—our illusions where our happiness may be found.

When people discover LoA they get excited because they are told that they can have whatever it is they want. Then they are told that the key is learning to be happy without that thing!

For those, The Secret and all other primary materials said, right from the beginning, "let go," didn't they? I really can't blame those behind such materials although most of them are only marketers and clowns. Yet, it is particularly this "let go" step; this one single connection between the "material" and the "spiritual" that became most ambiguous and confusing for everyone—and particularly for this reason, being a link between two worlds. But it's an "industry" as Adi said. They don't even dare mention words like "spiritual" or "ego" or any of that stuff in their materials, or else the "sales" volume will significantly and instantly decrease.

But like I said, a lot of people are drawn in by the idea of using LoA to get "stuff" not necessarily in learning how to be happy without it, and not understanding that's how you get all of the stuff you wanted in the end anyway.

Exactly, ma'am. That's because the very classification of "spiritual" vs. "material" is but a concept in the mind. It's not real. All that we perceive as material is a "thought" objectified. All come from the mind, and the mind comes from the spirit. Where, then, does the material end and the spiritual begin? So yes, we have to be happy first; that is, mentally fulfill our desire within first, thus become, really become who we want to be and vibrationally match with it, and then finally comes the world outside which is but a mirror to only reflect our inner image and mind back.


Thanks again Kazoo for a beautiful thread and discussion(s).

Lotus, three hours ago I literally said in my head "I'd love it if Lotus or Kazoo could expand on this," and then forgot about it because Casino came on TV.  

This is how I feel about your post :



Thank you both of you

Lotus ♥ wrote: The non-Neville schools therefore came up with the "let go" concept and practice, just to dissipate this energy and clear the way up for manifestation. (The Neville schools, on the other hand, didn't need this step, because they (Neville, Jesus, etc), based on faith and belief to the level of certainty, assume a constant presence or invocation of the "state desired," in which there are no negative feelings/energy to dissipate in the first place).

I'm honestly not all that concerned with the people who can' "just do it", the people who have an innate ability to just focus positively on their goals and those who automatically have enough faith to get their desire.  I suppose something can be learned from what they do, how they are, but I honestly think if you asked them how they did it they probably wouldn't be able to explain anything in a way that helps someone who is struggling because it is something innate in them that they really don't have to work on.

So then, the people who have nothing negative to dissipate in the first place, that's wonderful for them.  The rest of us DO need some way of getting to that point.  

There is someone we all know who insists that all you need is faith.  OK, I can buy that.  But if you don't have it, how do you get there?  Well he focuses on building faith.  That's great.  Well, when you are in the process of building faith, aren't you actually at the same time LETTING GO of the things that are keeping you from having faith?  It's the same thing to me, just different ways of describing the same process, but he would insist that you don't need to "let go".  Maybe he means you don't have to let go of wanting your desire.  No one says you have to do that. Who knows.  He's just as confusing and contradictory as those he mocks. Again, he basically agrees with them, he just doesn't use the same terminology. And the method he prescribes can just make someone feel MORE attached if they are not starting from a good place to begin with.

I for one am not going to dismiss folks like Rhonda Byrne or anyone else who has tried to present these ideas to a mass audience. I actually applaud her for introducing the LoA to millions of people who otherwise would not be aware of this force in their lives. I am sure a lot of people who never bothered to dig a little deeper after watching The Secret remained just as stuck as they were to begin with.

But many others, including myself, used the movie as an introduction and it sparked a desire to learn more.

I am sure we all see that these ideas can open a whole can of worms and it's not really easy to present a deeper understanding to beginners in the form of a movie alone. But she's changed lives, so for that I thank her.

President Roosevelt wrote:Lotus, three hours ago I literally said in my head "I'd love it if Lotus or Kazoo could expand on this," and then forgot about it because Casino came on TV.  

This is how I feel about your post :



Thank you both of you

Hahaha that was hilarious, President.

I guess it's because you "let go" thanks to the Casino that you manifested your desire right away.

Thank you my friend; the credit definitely goes to Kazoo and all those who shared in this wonderful thread. (Truth is I rather feel kinda embarrassed for always coming late to such threads. I look like a man who arrives after the party's over to only find everyone lying around in deep sleep, but instead of walking away in peace he just pulls out his Beretta or Glock and fires two bullets in the air, thus gets everyone instantly awake and fully alert. What a man!) loool

Kazoo wrote:I for one am not going to dismiss folks like Rhonda Byrne...

I'm not going to dismiss anyone at all, Kazoo. Speaking of the "industry" or the "clowns," I only give general hints, more or less what everyone knows, but I never name names. As for Rhonda Byrne in particular, I applaud her too, for the same reason. Moreover, Byrne does know what she's talking about. That was even clearer "after" The Secret, particularly in her book The Power. Among those in The Secret were Bob Doyle and Dr. John Demartini as well, both indeed are fantastic.

So no, I'm not really dismissing anyone—not even the charlatans and clowns. On the contrary, as I always say there's no such thing as evil; everyone has a role to play in the grand orchestra. So even those who deceive the innocent are also "angels" who give us, through pain, another set of lessons. Many do need this kind of pain in order to get to the next level, so why deny their path or dismiss their teachers? Everything is perfect, my lady. We only seemingly resist darkness only because we, in this movie, chose to play the light. Yet it's still a movie in the end, isn't it?

I'm honestly not all that concerned with the people who can' "just do it", the people who have an innate ability to just focus positively on their goals and those who automatically have enough faith to get their desire.  I suppose something can be learned from what they do, how they are, but I honestly think if you asked them how they did it they probably wouldn't be able to explain anything in a way that helps someone who is struggling because it is something innate in them that they really don't have to work on...

There is someone we all know who insists that all you need is faith.  OK, I can buy that.  But if you don't have it, how do you get there?...........

I generally agree with you, Kazoo. Your words, however, apply on both Jesus and what's-his-name on PLOA forum—especially the part on "faith." Both said "Believe." Neither really explained how. So I think we have to differentiate between two kinds of teachers, or writers: a kid on a public forum, who just found "Believe" in every book, article and video so he's just repeating the same word (and probably he doesn't really care to help or even teach; he's only looking for a role to play, self-actualization, approval, groupies, thank-you's, etc), and a true master who may not really explain intellectually how to believe, yet gives you a whole system and even a complete map how to get there.

In the case of Jesus for example, "faith" or "belief" is itself a "gift" from the Holy Spirit, so you/we have to first connect with the Spirit, and then not only faith but several other gifts will be given—peace, joy, etc. In the case of Neville, belief is based on knowledge and understanding. He does explain it all to help you first "recognize" who you really are and how this entire show is running. In the case of the Eastern masters, saints like Ramakrishna for example or Vivekananda, they first give you "training," which may even appear totally irrelevant, like "how to breathe" for instance. Yet, it's based on a very ancient and true "science," and from the "air" you breathe and the "food" you eat, they get you gradually all the way to what you "believe" and you end up with such faith as to move mountains.

So I agree with you, of course; but just for your readers at least, not to burn the wheat with the weeds.

There are so many things that Kazoo is pointing out that I can relate to.

No, The Secret does not answer all questions and was made to reach mass media. No, Rhonda Byrne is not perfect and is human like all of us and that is our nature, no matter how much we learn.

YES, she brought awareness of the LoA to HUGE numbers of people who attracted it, and she didn't really say hey, use this to get what you want. That is up to each individual how they are going to "apply" what they learn.

Yes, "just having faith" and "letting go" go hand in hand- ex: let go and let God.
Having faith for me simply means removing doubt. You can't force faith, but you can displace doubt with ease. That can be taught, but on a very individual basis depending on the person/situation.

I have learned so much from what some would call gurus, I just don't see the point behind 1. Treating them like they are better than others and 2. Holding them to impossible standards like they are not human. They must have done some great things vibrationally for so many to see them as teachers, and that is wonderful. But like Jesus said, this and more you also can do.

Totally totally get what (Kazoo) you are saying about it's well and good how some can just visualize and manifest because it comes naturally to them... but the rest of us need some kind of direction and those people wouldn't be able to explain it because they just knew it right away.... or let me just quote you...

Kazoo wrote:I'm honestly not all that concerned with the people who can' "just do it", the people who have an innate ability to just focus positively on their goals and those who automatically have enough faith to get their desire. I suppose something can be learned from what they do, how they are, but I honestly think if you asked them how they did it they probably wouldn't be able to explain anything in a way that helps someone who is struggling because it is something innate in them that they really don't have to work on.

Neville may have had this innate quality, but I think it was learned over time during his youth, as he was a trained actor and dancer- they are trained thoroughly on how to relax and imagine and feel and act as if. Point is, we can all learn to do the same if we choose to. I felt like I was completely out of my element with the life I had created around me, I was clinically depressed, homesick, didn't have much money to my name and was virtually friendless when I got myself to the point of focusing and acting as if. I didn't even know any of Neville's teachings back then... I had watched The Secret, read Canfield's Success Principles, Hill's Law of Success and watched some Deepak Chopra vids. Only later I dove into Neville (because I thought wow so this wasn't just a fluke that this worked for me, it's an actual THING), and also heard of Abraham and felt the same about those teachings.

Everyone needs a little playing around with their vibration, but I do believe that those things can be taught, and faith comes with realizing that these practical things are actually tested and sound. I don't think faith is usually blind- it consumes us when we identify with it and invite it as part of our self-concept (I AM).

Any thoughts?

Just to be clear I don't advocate putting anyone up on a pedestal. Like I said in another thread here I found the hero worship over at the other place to be quite disturbing actually. I am just responding to some sentiment I have seen that seems to dismiss the popular "teachers" or whatever you want to call them as if what they present has no value simply because they think LoA has become and "industry". No offense intended. I personally don't follow any one teacher in particular. I suppose if I had to name one who I found most helpful it would be Bashar, but I've taken what I've liked and what has made sense to me from lots of sources.

Something I'd like to discuss about the very popular advice of visualizing and "acting as if." I think most teachers advise this but I've been an observer over at the other place for a while and I see this as something that actually makes matters worse sometimes. I think if a person tries these practices while they are really attached it backfires. The visualization makes the longing, desperation etc. more intense. The more they focus on what they want the more the visualizing makes them just want it more. And not in a good way. And most of them seem to be in a situation where they aren't ready to do some work on themselves before they jump into attempting to manifest what they want. It's a shame.

Lotus wrote:

I guess it's because you "let go" thanks to the Casino that you manifested your desire right away.

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Well, that settles it. Anytime I want to manifest something, I'm just going to set the intention, sit back, relax, and watch Casino   :

When I first learned about the LOA and attachment and letting go, I thought that was the hardest part. I have experimented a lot with different models that would work for me. Think about something once and then let it go. Until I realized you just need to let go of the resistance you have towards your desire. These days, when I have something I want I focus on it with all the positive thoughts what I have. I do it with passion. I eat sleep and breath my desire, figure of speech. I keep on doing it just as long as I have fun with it. The intensity of the passion fades away over time. I just go with the natural process and I have let the thoughts of letting go literally let go. Having a desire is a natural thing, the thoughts about it usually come natural as well. If you have a passion you just go for it, you are focused and it will appear. I just know it will and following this natural process makes things manifest with ease. For me at least :-)

i am quite thankful for the secret... if i hadnt watched the documentary i would never have found my way here to you lovely people... it might not be the cornerstone or the complete answer but i think it has its place

and i do like the whole Ask, Believe, Recieve mantra, its easy and straightforward and a lot of people connect to it, but of course i think once you've dived in you have to go deeper than this

i also think its great for kids, there's a secret to teen power book aswell, its basically the secret written in teen lingo... my daughters love it and they understand it whereas a lot of other teachings may be too much or too complicated for them to get their heads around

but yeah.. i think it definitely has its place and i'm grateful for it

p.s Lotus is my hero

Night Eyes wrote:i am quite thankful for the secret... if i hadnt watched the documentary i would never have found my way here to you lovely people... it might not be the cornerstone or the complete answer but i think it has its place

and i do like the whole Ask, Believe, Recieve mantra, its easy and straightforward and a lot of people connect to it, but of course i think once you've dived in you have to go deeper than this.............

The movie " The Secret " did and does serve a purpose. There are many that came to believe in the power of LOA through it.

" Ask, Believe, Receive ". Keeps it simple.

Depending on the person, just following the basics of that movie would work for most.

It's when we dig deeper into it, that's when we make it more complicated than it need be.

The Simplifier wrote:Hahahaha thanks. It's Armine. Spot on with (paraphrased) "They'll perceive it as what frequency they are vibrating to." So true. I can say "Hey

you look great!"... and depending on their frequency, that can be translated as many ways as we can imagine and more.

Booooo!!
No more mystery!!

Haha! Nice to see you again. I could never have guessed. This new name of yours is simple and not so "marketer-y" haha.
But we're groupies so need to complain about that anyway.
JK

The Simplifier wrote:I had a client whose daughters I used to tutor and I showed him and his wife some houses when I was in real estate...

Well.. well...
A tutor and a real estate agent. And now author and LoA teacher. You got a really big fat resume haha!
This reminds me of a friend of mine who tried ALMOST everything under the sun to finally find out her real passion for yoga!
Are you on the similar mission as well? To find passion? Some real answers?

The Simplifier wrote:being around them was awesome because they were running a large company on multi continents and had thousands of employees and the one thing I

can say about the dad- eeps it simple. Makes a decision quick. Boom bam boom. We're either doing this or we're not.

Yep! Most of these super high achieving people are very efficient in cutting out all the unnecesary drama and other bullshit.
It's the meek ones who are constantly in search of theory and more material for mental masturbation. I am guilty of that too. One of the reasons I have stopped being

active on the internet forums and focusin more on being out there and putting my ideas out there in public and letting them unfold.
Needless to say, I've learned and grown a lot more merely by putting a single idea out there than reading 17 other LoA books and methods and tricks and tactics. lol

The Simplifier wrote:One thing that always stood out is how the maid/nanny brought him a glass of water on a little tray when he came home from work. That stayed in

my mind for some eason... where I grew up, nobody delivered water on a little silver tray! If I asked a friend for some water they'd be like yeah, it's in the fridge.

Hahahaha! Cool stuff.

Haha! Yes. We do have many such nice things here in the land of kamasutra. And trust me, we do live upto the standards. Just take a look at population. Chinese beat us

into the competition. But Just like chinese goods, the people are also the same. If it works, it'll take you to the moon if not be happy even if it works till the next
morning. lololol JK

And I know how you feel about the water thing - Exactly how I feel while crossing roads here in America. Even if the car is coming at 100 mph, they will STOP, greet

you, wait for you to get by and then they go.
What happens in India? You start crossing the road, a vehicle comes at the speed of million miles per hour because the driver probably broke the signal and doesn't

wanna bribe the cop. Then, just unlike in the movies of Final Destination and with the grace of your forefathers, the driver has some skills and you don't get hit. You

give the driver an angry look and he'll most probably come with something like, "What? your dad doesn't own this road asshole, be thankful I didn't kill you""
hahahaha

PS: Sorry about thay "Mr TS" reference haha.

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kazoo wrote:The reason why these terms and concepts exist is because it's all very well and good to give someone simple advice like "Focus on what you want" but

obviously that's not so simple for everyone to do.

The problem is not the advice. The problem is not that it's not so simple for everyone to do. The problem is with who you give that advice to.
if it's hard for you to focus on what you (The general you, not YOU you) want then that means one and one thing only -You don't know what you want.

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Night Eyes wrote:yeah i'm terrible for getting 'garbage head' especially if i've got a lot going on i find it so much harder to focus my thoughts, and then when you

have the added confusion of to be or not to be attached, it gets messy lol

GOOD!
Now for where you are right now, in this stage, it will be very painfully simple for you to understand what Napoleon Hill has to say about "Definite Chief Aim".

Sometimes I really wonder (this should not be taken as a rude comment. Instead take it as a genuine question).
What they hell are you trying to do by learning LoA. The same question goes for you (Night), to Colonel, to Posay and to lunareclipse of PLOA.
I mean, seriously

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kazoo wrote:I know the cool thing to do with some people is to dismiss the "gurus" and all of that, but there actually is a point to most of the stuff they say.

It's not so much about being seen cool and an outlaw and a "maverick". (Although I won't deny how pleasurable it is to make people feel stupid.)
It's more about authenticity and effectiveness of information.

kazoo wrote:Most of us experience "garbage head", especially with things we care a lot about.

I disagree.
One of the fundamental principles of nature is that "Nature abhors vaccum". When there is nothing in your head, the nature will fill it with garbage.

Once again, Napoleon Hill's principle of Definite Chief Aim comes to the rescue.

You get garbage head because you have nothing better to do.

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Congrats Mr. President on your successful transforamtion from a whale back to human being.
Inspiring.
That explains why you have a nice heart.
Ususally fat people are nice people. Just saying.
(a little secret, I never call a fat person fat )

President Roosevelt wrote:But if I don't channel negative emotions into action and just live with them, never accepting and releasing them, they become stuck to me

and bring down my drive to accomplish anything.

True!
You will learn a whole lot more just by fucking something up than listening to these dumbass seminars of LoA gurus.
Now that you've lost a ton, I believe you're eligible to answer this question.

How long have you been in "Vortex". How frequently did you "let go" of the fact that you were fat? How many times a day you visualized you being slimmer?
OR
How many times did you just go through the motions of eating right and exercising long enought that resulted in a "habit" and everything then on was a piece if cake?



Please respond.

President Roosevelt wrote:But yes, if you set a goal and focus on it long enough with powerful emotions that energize you, I tend to find that I'll get tons of

intuitive ideas at just the right time. But only if my state of mind/emotions are confident, relaxed, curious, and open to it...

Yes. Precisely. They key phrase here is "long enough". And thats your powerhouse. The mitochondria. (pardon the biology jargon, been working with DNA/RNA scientists for

a while now )

The only thing I disagree here with is that you say "only if my state of mind/emotions are confident, relaxed, curious, and open to it..."
Answer this.
When you were fat back in the day, did you face any confidence related issues in the fact that you were fat? No! You were fat and you knoew it.
Do you feel underconfident when someone asks you what direction does the sun rise? No! You immediately say "East".
Do you face confidence issues while answering questions like "What is your name? No!

Why do you think that is?
It's because you have beliefs about the answers to these question.
What are beliefs again? Any thought that is repeated over and over and over and over and over.
Irrespective of how you feel while repeating it, it becomes belief.

The confidence and state of mind is an out come of habits. Habits are formed by beliefs AND beliefs are formed by habits.
So here is your key - Set a goal and indulge yourself into thinking about it. aWith enough repeatation, you will believe it.

Shit! people believe in Jesus (and god and religion) you can easily believe YOU can get whatever you want haha.

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The Simplifier wrote: it's because we are not exercising that mental discipline.

It's majorly because of not knowing exactly what we want, wouldn't you agree?
Because, if you have crystal clear idea of what you are after, you don't get monkey mind jumping around the tree of "I want this.. Oh but that looks sweet so now I want

that... and so on)

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OMG! Lotus! Is that you Zorba?
I'm sorry I'm not aware of this. Haven't been active in a while so not updated on these updates haha.

I do have a different perspective about what we're discussing here.

Why can't most people focus on what they want.
Just like I mentioned above - They don't know what they're looking for.
Now to put a twist in the story, they THINK they know what they want (based on many factors. Social conditioning, TV commercials, what celbrities say on the main steram

media, movies and what not) - But if you ask them to look close, what they're actually after is a specific feeling. And then they somehow abuse their intelligence to

figure out how they are gonna get those feelings. This all happens subconsiously and they are not even aware fof this. After constantly thinking about it in terms of

"how" they make it a belief. And since this belief is so rooted in incongruence between real feelings and the "means" it becomes more of a doubt than a belief.

What happens next is, in order to reduce this doubts they seek for more "hows" and that results in this need for more information and more knowledge.

And this is exactly what I hate about these so called "gurus" a lot. They see these people wandering around in confusion and then they build a business around it.
Nothing wrong with that. Businesses are built to solve the problems. But when they market themselves as "problem solvers" and in turn create more problems and more

confusion and then marketing themselves as "helpers". Hypocracy is what irks me.

Taking look at the facts, none of these teachers is a super high achievers. Sometimes there is a thing called "rationalization". It goes like this "but I don't have any

interest in making billons of dollars and mission dollar mnsions and private jets". Fine!
Then why are they running these exclusive seminars costing thousands of dollars?

"I don't have interest in money" is just a rationalization of the fact that they don't believe that they will achieve elite level success in spite of the fact that they

know and "teach" (lol) LoA.

This is what disgusts me about LoA "pornstars".

On to the "esoteric wisdom" that noone understands.

Oh! Yeah! haha! I went a little oxymoronic there lol.

Okay, I get what you are saying here. To paraphrase - The first and foremost condition of achievement is "mind control". But most people can't do it because they're

moved by the either of pain or pleasure. Hope I interpreted it correctly.

But the question I have about this goes like this.
- All the minor and major inventions of human kind were either to reduce pain or to increase pleasure. All the hight achieving people were, for most part, motivated by

reducing pain. These are the people who achieved great successes and helped write the glorious history. These are the ones who left legacy behind.

Onto the analogy of "Act of mind control involves some form of sacrifice of pleasure". True! No issues with this. But I don't see how esoteric wisdom helps here anyway.
Besides, if you've made a firm "decision" on what you want and are determied to get it, these sacrifices are worthless and often go unnoticed. It's when people don't

know what do they want and in fact don't know if they want it at all, that is when they get indulged in this esoteric wisdom. Because it is mentally appealing and

conforms to the natural principles of "nature abhors vaccuum".

Going by the drug analogy of esoteric wosdom, to me, it sounds more like the esoteric wisdom itself. haha.
Look around this LoA community - people getting hooked on this esoteric wisdom drug and wanting more of it. Only to backwards rationalize how much of a progress they've

made but in fact, they're ven worse than when they didn't know about LoA.

When I say this, I say this with enough authority. I personally have gone through all these stages and I have a journal wheere I document all this crap going inside my

head. This is how I managed to find out this pattern of downward spiral of pseudo spirituality and esoteric wisdom. THankfully, I was lucky to get a few great mentors

who helped me snap out of this circle jerk.

And yes, if we're always gonna be servants, I'd much prefer to be the servent of the part my mind that gets shit done than the one that talks shit all day long. haha

On a closing note, I don't mean to disrespect abnyone who is into esoteric wisdom. If you find it mentally stuimulating, good! go ahead and get involved.
My only point is if your goal is to win FIFA best player of they year award, then esoteric wisdom is as useful as a pair of teddy bears.

Onto the last paragraph about me having mind control.
Yes, I did struggle with that. Sometimes I still do.
But here is the thing - All you need to do is reframe your interpretations of pain and pleasure in a way that suits your purpose.
And make a committed decision. That is how you get rid of the problem of "mind control".
Definiteness of purpose makes it all much much easier.

=========

kazoo wrote:I'm honestly not all that concerned with the people who can' "just do it", the people who have an innate ability to just focus positively on their goals

and those who automatically have enough faith to get their desire.  I suppose something can be learned from what they do, how they are, but I honestly think if you

asked them how they did it they probably wouldn't be able to explain anything in a way that helps someone who is struggling because it is something innate in them that

they really don't have to work on.

loooooooooooooooooool
That goes all against all the LoA teachings.

To "just do it", you need neither belief nor faith. haha
Beliefs and faith is developed merely by that fact of "just doing it".

It's irrelevant how they do it.
There is a concept in NLP called "modelling". Which means just "copy". Mindlessly "copy" what these successful people are doing. There is a magic in modelling. You seem

to figure shit out on your own. It's also called taking responsibility of your life and learning by your instincts.

If you're stuggling, just model what successful people do. Don't ask stupid questions. Don't focus on eliminating struggle. Accept the fact that you're struggling and

get on with your mission.

But! What if I don't have a mission/purpose/definite chief aim?
Good! Then keep struggling and keep looking about for more wisdom and more advice and more such experiences where you don't learn anything. Hahaha!

Not looking to bring any of the baggage from the other place over here. For everyone who has found that particular line of thinking helpful, then FANTASTIC. I'm always glad when people find something helpful.

I know for me that philosophy doesn't work while many other things that have been dismissed have worked wonders. I know I'm not alone in that.

All of those different models exist for a reason. Because we are all different. I saw over at the other place how you didn't like when someone you personally found helpful was being disparaged. So please afford others the same opportunity to share their experiences without disparaging them.

I really want this place to remain a friendly, supportive forum where people feel welcome to share without having to worry about someone telling them their personal experience is wrong.

That's really all I have to say, we are all different and a little understanding that what has worked for you and some others will not work for everyone would be awesome.

Adi, when you ask me that question, i guess my first response is to ask you to be more specific with the question?

what am i trying to do when Learning Loa? the same as everyone else i would imagine lol

dont be fooled by my gas bagging on here, in the professional side of my life, i do a lot of listening... i'm trained to actively listen.. so yeah in my down time i like to chat and have fun and a giggle... but dont fret, i do go away and i have made choices of what i want and what i want to do with all this information

i do get the garbage head, and i do have tendencies to overthink, but coming to these forums have helped me with that, i am a lot more focused than i was about 6 mths ago and i have made choices in a lot of areas that i've probably been indecisive on

i guess for me, i'm not a massively materialistic person, i want a career and a stable life to provide for my children.... the main thing i want is peace though, just that calm loving warm inner peace that i get when i come and learn these wonderful subjects here

so yeah... hope that explains what you were asking

Same here NE, quieting my mind has definitely been the biggest challenge I've faced so far.  I've gott a lot better but I know there is still room for improvement.

And money doesn't buy happiness.  As we discussed before- happiness does not come from material things but from within.  I know I had an opportunity to marry a man who makes a lot of money and could have provided me with a big house and a fancy car and all of that.  But I knew that wouldn't make me happy so I didn't marry him.  Instead I found unimaginable happiness with someone who probably makes less than half than the other guy.

I know I've also turned down job opportunities that would pay me more than what I make now but to me the trade off wasn't worth it.  

Not everyone is materialistic.  Not every poor person is miserable.  Not every rich person is happy, that's for sure.

yeah i think silencing the mind will always be something that needs to be worked on, however i'm going to be a little bit controversial and say.. sometimes i enjoy the ego, i dont always want to quiet it.

they do say money cant buy you happiness, i would be quite happy just to be comfortable and make sure mine and the kids needs are met, maybe the odd little luxury like holidays or nice clothes.. but i think there's a lot of pressure in society to want want want.. its a lot of pressure!

Adi, you're quite feisty aren't ya? Trying to work out who you are. Maverick?

What the hell am I trying to learn from LOA? Why does it matter? If I was trying to manifest a bucket of fried chicken or a lottery win...who cares. Does it matter, reeeeeeally? Lol.

yep Posay its Mav lol

Lol I thought it was Adam at first because of the name but when I read the content of the posts I could tell they weren't whiney enough to be Adam and Maverick sprung to mind. Cool.

posay wrote:Lol I thought it was Adam at first because of the name but when I read the content of the posts I could tell they weren't whiney enough to be Adam and Maverick sprung to mind.  Cool.

Adam's not whiny. Adam just got a "wrong" name—a very, very heavy name, "Adam," that has a lot of connotations and unconsciously invokes several feelings and expectations. Instead, think of him as Tony for example, would he feel as whiny? Think one of the most common names, Oliver, Jack or even James, and he wouldn't feel as whiny. So just coming across as "Adam," and in a forum people like Posay or MA frequent to have fun, that was in my opinion why he ended up whiny and even worse than whiny. May God forgive us all!
Will finally be back to you Adi in a few hours.

Finally back to Adi. First of all a very good idea is to send more than one post, Adi; preferably one post in reply to each of ours, instead of that "tower" in which you crammed us all for no obvious reason.

OMG! Lotus! Is that you Zorba?
I'm sorry I'm not aware of this. Haven't been active in a while so not updated on these updates haha.

Who's Zorba?

I do have a different perspective about what we're discussing here.
Why can't most people focus on what they want.
Just like I mentioned above - They don't know what they're looking for.
Now to put a twist in the story, they THINK they know what they want (based on many factors. Social conditioning, TV commercials, what celbrities say on the main steram media, movies and what not) - But if you ask them to look close, what they're actually after is a specific feeling. And then they somehow abuse their intelligence to figure out how they are gonna get those feelings. This all happens subconsiously and they are not even aware of this.

Yes, but this is every man's story, my friend. What are you yourself doing now in the States, for example? The very concept of "success," about which you're probably the most talkative, or the most enthusiastic, is in question here, Adi. What is success? How do you define success?

So yes, I agree with you, of course. But this is the whole human drama. Everyone thinks they know what they want; everyone aware or unaware is after a specific feeling; and everyone, to one degree or another, is brainwashed—by the media, the culture, the education system, etc. Even those who wake and "rebel" against this all are still "conditioned" by it. They only "react," give almost the same "response" just in the opposite direction. Like that atheist who denies God and hates religion in response to those who love them. Either way, God remains a central idea and interest in his life. Either way, he's a captive in the same prison.

However aware you may really be, therefore, you're playing the same game like it or not. First you start unsure what you really want. Next you think you know what you want and begin your journey pursuing it. Finally, 60 years later or so, you probably discover that wasn't really what you want.

After constantly thinking about it in terms of  "how" they make it a belief. And since this belief is so rooted in incongruence between real feelings and the "means" it becomes more of a doubt than a belief.

What happens next is, in order to reduce this doubts they seek for more "hows" and that results in this need for more information and more knowledge. And this is exactly what I hate about these so called "gurus" a lot. They see these people wandering around in confusion and then they build a business around it. Nothing wrong with that. Businesses are built to solve the problems. But when they market themselves as "problem solvers" and in turn create more problems and more confusion and then marketing themselves as "helpers". Hypocracy is what irks me.

Taking look at the facts, none of these teachers is a super high achievers. Sometimes there is a thing called "rationalization". It goes like this "but I don't have any interest in making billons of dollars and mission dollar mnsions and private jets". Fine!
Then why are they running these exclusive seminars costing thousands of dollars? "I don't have interest in money" is just a rationalization of the fact that they don't believe that they will achieve elite level success in spite of the fact that they know and "teach" (lol) LoA.

This is what disgusts me about LoA "pornstars".

I again agree with you, more or less. I just don't have such strong denial or "disgust" anymore. I've simply learned that people are not that simple to be hastily judged like that, especially given that most people don't really have "freewill," are rather "programmed" and are just driven to do what they do. Besides, let's never forget this word of gold:


We have to learn to do the opposite, my friend—pay more attention to our behavior, and also more to others' intentions. You've been a victim of this human tendency or practice yourself, Adi. Those who take for example only your words, especially your vulgar words (behavior), will probably miss your immaculate meaning and miss your most beautiful "intentions" behind this vulgarity. So you too please just try to understand everyone's intentions and meaning, at least give them the benefit of the doubt, not just haste to feel "disgusted" by their behavior.

On to the "esoteric wisdom" that noone understands.
Oh! Yeah! haha! I went a little oxymoronic there lol.
Okay, I get what you are saying here. To paraphrase - The first and foremost condition of achievement is "mind control". But most people can't do it because they're moved by the either of pain or pleasure. Hope I interpreted it correctly.

Yes.

But the question I have about this goes like this.
- All the minor and major inventions of human kind were either to reduce pain or to increase pleasure. All the hight achieving people were, for most part, motivated by reducing pain. These are the people who achieved great successes and helped write the glorious history. These are the ones who left legacy behind.

That's why I gave examples last time. I don't deny the Pleasure-Pain drives or stimulants altogether. The sacrifice I meant was only a sacrifice of "immediate" pleasures, not of "every" pleasure. Those great achievers you mentioned were actually the proof, because they all did just that. They never allowed immediate and present pleasures to distract or take them away from a much greater pleasure they had in their imagination, rather chose what seemed to be exhausting or even painful, and that's how they got it and realized their dreams in the end.

Onto the analogy of "Act of mind control involves some form of sacrifice of pleasure". True! No issues with this. But I don't see how esoteric wisdom helps here anyway.

I wrote too much already so let me here answer almost the rest of your post in brief, all on esoteric wisdom anyway.

First of all I deal quite "lightly" with the whole thing, Adi. I don't at all mind that you describe "esoteric wisdom" as another type of drugs. Heck, I even agree with that. We just have a sub-forum here titled Esoteric Wisdom so it was a bit surprising that you suddenly dismissed it altogether like that last time. However, if you want a more "serious" discussion on this subject, we'll have to begin with the "definitions," my friend, like we do with any scientific endeavor. What do we really mean by "esoteric wisdom"? We may be just talking about two different things here, so "definitions" at first is the compass for any serious discussion.

Secondly how it helps. It helps because there is an entire science of mind in those esoteric circles, treatises and books. So in brief, the more you know about your mind and how it works, the more you can control it. This is simply how it helps.

Finally, yes of course, like religion, philosophy, magic and several other mental practices, perhaps even scientific research itself, it could work as another type of drugs, another distraction, or another escape from a very stressful situation or reality. But if we were to get rid of all that may work as a drug or escape, we'd be left with very, very few things to do in this world, my friend.

Onto the last paragraph about me having mind control.
Yes, I did struggle with that. Sometimes I still do.
But here is the thing - All you need to do is reframe your interpretations of pain and pleasure in a way that suits your purpose.
And make a committed decision. That is how you get rid of the problem of "mind control".
Definiteness of purpose makes it all much much easier.

It'd be great if you could kindly give us more details on your method, Adi. Perhaps even in a new thread. I mean, this is easy to say, but how to actually get there, this is the challenge. For example, many do "make the committed decision," but they just can't keep up. They do know what they want, quite clearly, and they do make their decision, even start fully enthusiastic. Soon however they just fall again in the circle of despair or even depression. I have some answers, of course, but I'd like to know YOUR method and how you personally and practically do it. Perhaps your approach or "re-framing" is easier to understand and follow.

Thanks my friend for your post and please forgive me for this late answer. Take care and have a great Californian night.