Power of Belief - Comments

well from what i know of Anti- Freeze is, it is actually quite sweet hence why animals drink it, as they like the taste and smell of it, it still poisons them though... i dont drink sports drinks so i have no idea what they taste like but i'm guessing if you have never had one before it might pass for one? or like you said it depends on what else would be going on in the persons head, if they were feeling low and negative would it still have a poisonous effect or not? the mind boggles!


posay one thing i've noticed is sometimes we injure ourselves and dont feel anything until we notice the actual injury, i'm always finding little cuts or bruises that i didnt notice but then hurt once i do, and i've read a few stories about people who have massively injured themselves and not felt anything until they've seen the blood and the injury, i was reading a news article recently about a guy who cut his hand off with a diy tool and felt nothing until he saw all the blood!

I can't play that clip

The Simplifier posted: " the visitor, realizes what happened, that antifreeze will likely be seen as poison by you, and that will be its consciousness."

This is what I lean toward. If the visitor ( me ) believes it is poison, even though the villager believes it's a sports drink, it will still poison him.
Why? Because in my reality, this is what antifreeze does, if taken internally.

Night Eyes posted: " hmmm well if its anything like a cat i once had it still poisoned him "

Again, from my reality, I know antifreeze is poison, to humans and animals. So, if I witness my cat drinking antifreeze, well, he will die if I don't get him to a vet really quick.


posay posted" " This mechanism helps to explain why we can’t simply will our way toward recovery, but need to take a pill. In essence, we 'need' some sort of external influence to initiate the sequence of events that lead to the placebo effect."

This is what I lean to, although it doesn't have to be a pill, it could be anything I would come to believe, to remedy the problem. Any external influence I would believe in, would help remedy or cure the aliment.

I've personally experienced healings or remedies from doing things many people would think are ridiculous to use.

Example: the Tesla purple plate. I truly believe these things work for healings. I'm experiencing it.

Why does it work? My belief that it does. Why, from my reality, do I witness some getting results, and, some do not? My reality, and, what I'm not so sure of, the belief from their reality. I don't have a handle on this, yet.

A fairly close friend of mine ordered and bought a Tesla purple plate to use on his shoulder. BEFORE he ordered it, I told him, " Look, don't order it, unless you believe it will work. Don't do it just because you believe it worked on me. You need to believe it will work on you. "

He went ahead and ordered it and is using it. To my knowledge, it's not working for him. This kind of surprises me, but, maybe, from my reality, I had doubts it would work for him.

To sum this up:

Our own individual realities supersede ( trump ) what a common belief, reality may exist.

Antifreeze, is commonly believed to be poisonous to both humans and animals. This would be a common belief to most realities, except for the remote villagers in a previous post example.

Yet, because most realities have the belief that antifreeze is a poison, the villager who drinks the poison, thinking it's just a sports drink, or, something to quench the thirst, he will get sick or even die from it.

Now, let's say there is a local shaman in the village. He comes forward and sees the villager became sick from drinking something the visitor has.

If the poisoned villager believes the shaman will heal him of the poison, he will be healed.

Why? Because, in my reality, I do believe shamans have the ability to heal. So does the shaman, and the poisoned villager.

i guess this is what makes everything so complex isnt it, i mean, the shaman might have doubts he could heal the man because its something that has come from outside his environment?

with regards to the cat (i will stop talking about them promise lol) i wasnt there when he drunk it, but thats not to say the person that found him had the belief he had been poisoned..and also its pretty lethal to them but they love to drink it because its so sweet apparently, so by the time i was alerted and told by the vet it was lethal unfortunately it was to late.... if the same thing happened again would i behave differently? i dont know its a pretty deep ingrained belief i guess.... its the same as us telling our children over the years what is and isnt toxic and teaching them dangers..... how do you eradicate such deep beliefs?

with certain things you're looking at years of learning and conditioning to change these things hmmmmm

rodan posted: " To sum this up:

Our own individual realities supersede ( trump ) what a common belief, reality may exist.

Antifreeze, is commonly believed to be poisonous to both humans and animals. This would be a common belief to most realities, except for the remote villagers in a previous post example. "

I got this backwards. What I meant to say was a common belief would trump our individual beliefs.

( A tad bit of dyslexia surfaced )

I guess how I posted it the first time, is how I really want it to be. That would be nice.

Night Eyes posted: " i guess this is what makes everything so complex isnt it, i mean, the shaman might have doubts he could heal the man because its something that has come from outside his environment? "

And that very well could be. Maybe this is where we could bring up the subject of parallel universes, infinite possibilities.
There is a reality, (universe ) where the shaman does heal him. One where he doesn't believe he can. etc.

There has to be a way to overcome a common belief, with one's individual belief, and do it most of teh time, not just once in a blue moon.

This subject reminds me of the " snake hancllers ", from those churches in the SouthEast part of the USA. These people pick up poisonous snakes during the church service, some get bitten, yet survive.

Not all of them, of course. It makes the news, sometimes, when one of them dies.

Now think about this......... they believe so strongly they can do this, handle deadly snakes, and not be overtaken by the snake's poison.

.
Alright, I'd like to get back to this conversation before it's too late. Just my two cents anyway. But first thanks to Rodan and all of you, I really enjoyed this lovely conversation. Personally I agree with the opinion that the villager will die, or be poisoned, regardless of his beliefs. I'm aware that Rodan left it intentionally in the "grey" area, but let's assume it was pure poison our villager took, would he die or not? He'd definitely die, again regardless of his beliefs.

However, in specific circumstances, our good villager will not die or even feel any pains or troubles, however poisonous the material he takes is. Such a man we usually call a "holy man," or a "man of God," or a "saint" (although, practically in most cases, such a man will know in advance when it's poisonous).

This, obviously, opens the doors to a very deep question about the nature of mind. But let's keep it as simple as possible. I'd only ask, where is the "poison" in the first place? Is it in the material a villager may take, outside him, or is it rather is his subconscious, inside him?
 
The poison, I claim, is inside us. The entire world is indeed within. That's why our villager will be poisoned regardless of his "conscious" beliefs. In his unconscious, a deeper belief exists, of the presence of poison in the world—and of pain and evil and death. This deeper belief is what kills him, and anyone like him, not the material "poison" itself. In one of Neville's most profound lines we read: "Heaven is your subconsciousness. Not even a sunburn is given from without. The rays without only awaken corresponding rays within. Were the burning rays not contained within man, all the concentrated rays in the universe could not burn him." (Prayer: The Art of Believing).
 
A "holy man," therefore, may not be poisoned, because he has a "different" world within, a much more purified and exalted world—a feat man can achieve either intentionally, through several practices we usually refer to as spiritual; or intentionally, through pure love and devotion to God.
 
This "different" world we may find a reference to even in the Bible; part of this book's fascinating symbolism. From Isaiah for example we learn that when "The One" comes (within rather than without): "The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them." (Isaiah 11:6)
 
This messianic world is rather a state of consciousness, in which man can finally reach his Godhood—having already "opened his eyes like God," already known the illusion of duality (the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil) thus already experienced both the poison and the antidote; then, after all transcended it and gained back his lost Union and Oneness with the Divine.
 

Again, just my opinion (and again please take your time; probably I'll be back tomorrow to Indra's Net, remember? lol hopefully our beautiful lady Night will forgive my lateness.) ♥
 

ahhh i knew you'd have some amazing reply to this lotus! you always seem to take it to a different level! thanks!

and like theres anything to forgive, take as long as you like

Thanks, Lotus.
Nice elephant, Night!

Lotus posted: " This, obviously, opens the doors to a very deep question about the nature of mind. But let's keep it as simple as possible. I'd only ask, where is the "poison" in the first place? Is it in the material a villager may take, outside him, or is it rather is his subconscious, inside him? " ( unquote )

Common belief among us, since the villager drank antifreeze, which is believed to be poison to the body. But, the villager himself doesn't know this. He thinks since it tastes good and sweet, like the sports drink, it's good and ok to drink.

So, why does he get sick or die? Because we who witness this event, we pretty much all believe the antifreeze is a poison to the body. From our realities, our minds, he's going to get sick or die.

Just my thoughts on this, Lotus, I'm really not sure what my final belief is on this subject.

Keeping to the topic, "Power of Belief ", if I can develop a mindset, a belief, within my own subconscious mind, that the villager can drink this stuff, being ignorant of this substance being poisonous, a really strong belief that it will not harm him, well, it won't. I'm leaning on this, or, at least, " I want to believe " this.

i would like to believe that such a strong belief is possible to Rodan!

If the villager is vibrating at a frequency of true well being and the drink would cause him harm (the drink orrr drinking by those witnesses, etc.) if he drank it, he simply would not be drawn to the drink. It wouldn't be on his frequency. Even if it was it plain sight, he wouldn't notice it there and grab it. Or if he in fact did grab it, he would be stopped or distracted in time to not end up drinking it.

That's how I see it.

I think all views I read here are valid. It's all inter-related.

The Simplifier posted: " I think all views I read here are valid. "

To me, it points to the idea that maybe, just maybe, the reality of of us has, is valid.

Reminds me of the example I keep hearing from speakers:

A car accident happens at an intersection. Ten witnesses come forward. Each has witnessed the accident and willing to give the attending police officer their account.

He interviews each of the ten, separately, of what happened. After the interviews, he compares them, and sees he has ten different eye witness accounts of what happened at the accident scene. They are similar, yet different.

How we individually perceive an event, is real, true, to each of us.

I still somehow think there is a " common reality " among us, we all share. I just can't put my finger on it.

hmmm we're also delving into the subject of memory recall there aswell....

Loa could put an interesting spin on false memory

.
@Night

ahhh i knew you'd have some amazing reply to this lotus! you always seem to take it to a different level! thanks!
and like theres anything to forgive, take as long as you like

Thanks my friend for your very kind words. But honestly I didn't mean to take it to a different level or even make it sound so—nor did it really come from a different level after all. What I rather find most beautiful here is that we all came from almost the same level, the reason we could easily and gracefully hold all these very interesting and profound dialogs in just a few days. (Special thanks to Kazoo and Rodan here).

As for Indra's Net, I already wrote a post on how I see this brilliant analogy. It isn't really long but I prefer to re-consider it, perhaps rewrite it all over. Anyway I'll send tomorrow, so until then thanks again my friend, for both your words and your understanding.


@The Simplifier

If the villager is vibrating at a frequency of true well being and the drink would cause him harm (the drink orrr drinking by those witnesses, etc.) if he drank it, he simply would not be drawn to the drink. It wouldn't be on his frequency. Even if it was it plain sight, he wouldn't notice it there and grab it. Or if he in fact did grab it, he would be stopped or distracted in time to not end up drinking it.
That's how I see it.
I think all views I read here are valid. It's all inter-related.

Thanks Armine. I definitely agree with you, so that was a good reminder we're theorizing here (which is okay, of course; it's important to have a sound theory and build a valid model). Yet practically what you just added here is probably the most accurate scenario of what would happen with our good villager.

Rodan, on the other hand, as far as I can tell, wants to "exhaust" the question of belief and take it to the very end, even if theoretically. Which belief would manifest, the visitor's or the villager's, should the latter drink that possibly poisonous antifreeze? More importantly, why? Rodan's inquiry, therefore, inevitably leads us to question the nature of reality itself. And, what a beautiful inquiry, I'd say!


@Rodaan

... If I can develop a mindset, a belief, within my own subconscious mind, that the villager can drink this stuff, being ignorant of this substance being poisonous, a really strong belief that it will not harm him, well, it won't.

True. But why, Rodan? Because if you could develop such a "really strong belief" in your own mind, it will be engraved in his own mind too. What you call my "own" mind, or "his" own mind, is only a very thin layer of the one collective mind of "all," the reason Jung used to write it with a capital letter: "the Unconscious."

Listen to what our amazing Neville said on this deeper unconscious connection (in the context of remote influence): "A friend a thousand miles away is rooted in your consciousness through your fixed ideas of him. To think of him and represent him to yourself inwardly in the state you desire him to be, confident that this subjective image is as true as it were already objectified, awakens in him a corresponding state which he must objectify. The results will be as obvious as the cause was hidden. The subject will express the awakened state within him and remain unaware of the true cause of his action. Your illusion of free will is but ignorance of the causes which make you act."


In other words, if you really and firmly believe that antifreeze won't poison the villager, your belief will awaken a corresponding state or vibration in his mind, and as a result he won't die. His own mind, the deeper strata of his unconscious, now modified by your beliefs, will simply negate the poisonous effect.

So we actually agree so far, theoretically at least, Rodan. Your beliefs do create your reality. You rightly said to Armine, "I still somehow think there is a "common reality" among us, we all share." This common reality, I believe, is the "common unconscious," through which our beliefs reflect and manifest. You just seem to adopt, as far as I can tell, a bit confusing model, Bashar's model in particular, in which we each live in a separate parallel reality. But this is just a model. Moreover, because it's really holographic, therefore paradoxical, the "opposite" model is as valid and perhaps even more expressive here: Instead of infinite number of parallel realities, what if we all were only one person? At least, only one "mind," therefore only one reality--be it factual or illusory?

So, again, it all comes down to our own confusion, in my humble opinion. We just confuse our real Self, one and infinite, with our personas or dolls apparently limited and separate on the screen of the world.

Lotus quote: " Rodan, on the other hand, as far as I can tell, wants to "exhaust" the question of belief and take it to the very end, even if theoretically. Which belief would manifest, the visitor's or the villager's, should the latter drink that possibly poisonous antifreeze? More importantly, why? "

Good question. Why?  Not so much as to understand how it happens, but, can it happen, and, can it happen more often, with practice, in even more extreme circumstances.  And, what method can, with practice, become the most efficient at doing so?

If I can supersede the common belief that antifreeze is poison to animals and humans, in my own mind, that would prove my own individual reality trumps common reality.

It's an extreme example, but, only to bring up what I think is an important issue. 

A more down to earth example we've all read and heard about similar events:

" A 95 lb. woman is involved in a car accident, the car is flipped over, pinning her child partially under the frame of the 3,000 lb. automobile.  Smelling gasoline and fearing the car to catch fire, she miraculously lifts the car to free her child.  "

Common belief: A 95 lb woman cannot physically lift a car, even a few inches. Can't be done.  

Her belief:  I have to get this car off my child. No one is around to help. I have to, and will get him free.  

Her belief trumped common belief, in this example.


Can we, as individuals, overpower, overcome, a common belief to change the circumstances of a particular event, no matter how extreme?

The answer would be " yes ", depending on the level of belief within the person's mind.

And, this leads to the subject of overcoming limited beliefs.  They can be overcome, and, there are methods discussed on how this is done.

where there's a will, theres a way

The Simplifier wrote:If the villager is vibrating at a frequency of true well being and the drink would cause him harm (the drink orrr drinking by those witnesses, etc.) if he drank it, he simply would not be drawn to the drink. It wouldn't be on his frequency. Even if it was it plain sight, he wouldn't notice it there and grab it. Or if he in fact did grab it, he would be stopped or distracted in time to not end up drinking it.

That's how I see it.

I think all views I read here are valid. It's all inter-related.

Hi everyone..

This is great discussion but i didnt read the whole thread..but this example is good to explain the process..

Hi armine..
You are right but my question is ,if the villeger is having strong belief that what he is drinking is a drink not poison,he should not get any symptom of that poison ..his belief should be dominant thought  in this case and not that of viewer...

Now if he KNOWs in his subconscious the effects of poison and that is reason of his death , this poison should NOT be effective on a person who dont know about effects of poison or something???not possible???

Sorry if i sound insane...lol

rodan wrote:Lotus quote: " Rodan, on the other hand, as far as I can tell, wants to "exhaust" the question of belief and take it to the very end, even if theoretically. Which belief would manifest, the visitor's or the villager's, should the latter drink that possibly poisonous antifreeze? More importantly, why? "

Good question. Why?  Not so much as to understand how it happens, but, can it happen, and, can it happen more often, with practice, in even more extreme circumstances.  And, what method can, with practice, become the most efficient at doing so?

If I can supersede the common belief that antifreeze is poison to animals and humans, in my own mind, that would prove my own individual reality trumps common reality.

It's an extreme example, but, only to bring up what I think is an important issue. 

A more down to earth example we've all read and heard about similar events:

" A 95 lb. woman is involved in a car accident, the car is flipped over, pinning her child partially under the frame of the 3,000 lb. automobile.  Smelling gasoline and fearing the car to catch fire, she miraculously lifts the car to free her child.  "

Common belief: A 95 lb woman cannot physically lift a car, even a few inches. Can't be done.  

Her belief:  I have to get this car off my child. No one is around to help. I have to, and will get him free.  

Her belief trumped common belief, in this example.


Can we, as individuals, overpower, overcome, a common belief to change the circumstances of a particular event, no matter how extreme?

The answer would be " yes ", depending on the level of belief within the person's mind.

And, this leads to the subject of overcoming limited beliefs.  They can be overcome, and, there are methods discussed on how this is done.

Wow this is what i wanted to read...
But can a common belief be challenged in a person who doesnt even know about that common belief?? his own dominant thought should be manifested when he even does't know about something even at subconscious level...

bunny quoted: " Wow this is what i wanted to read...
But can a common belief be challenged in a person who doesnt even know about that common belief?? his own dominant thought should be manifested when he even does't know about something even at subconscious level..."

First, for the record........what I posted on this subject,( for that matter, what I have to say about any subject),  is my opinion. I share what I think about it. What I believe about it.  At least how I believe today.

I think the subconscious mind's beliefs supersede, trump over, what the conscious mind believes.  What counts is what the subconscious believes.  That's why it's so hard to change a  belief, consciously.  The subconscious fights for what it believes.

You bring up an interesting point in this quote.  ( can a common belief be challenged if the person doesn't even know that specific belief.  Not even his subconscious knows.)

It would be pretty obvious his conscious mind does not ( using the example of antifreeze......he's never seen it before, knows nothing about it )

Who's to say his subconscious does not? I doubt if there is any record of antifreeze there, but, we really don't know.  We assume only that which that person's mind experienced during his lifetime. However, could there be more?

His subconscious mind would have access to " all that is ".  The Akashic records is the universe' s super computer system. It is this system that acts as the central storehouse of all. Would his subconscious go out and find that information, there, in the universe's storehouse of information?

BTW, I don't think you sound insane about this. You bring up some interesting points.

rodan wrote:.........................
First, for the record........what I posted on this subject,( for that matter, what I have to say about any subject),  is my opinion. I share what I think about it. What I believe about it.  At least how I believe today.

Of course, my friend. And this opinion of yours is very enlightening and intriguing. You always open new horizons and spaces in your posts, Rodan; a beautiful ability or perhaps talent that I sincerely look forward to learning from you. As for your answers and the fact that they may change tomorrow, this is perfect. This is exactly the attitude of every true and sincere seeker after the truth. We always have more questions than answers, and more doubts than dogmas. Listen to what this great philosopher said:




I believe we'll meet again on this discussion but, just for now, I'd like to comment only on this: 

His subconscious mind would have access to "all that is".  The Akashic records is the universe's super computer system. It is this system that acts as the central storehouse of all. Would his subconscious go out and find that information, there, in the universe's storehouse of information?

That's it, Rodan. At least, this is "my opinion" too. Last time I said if you really believed, firmly and strongly enough, your belief would be engraved or impressed on HIS unconscious mind. If that be true, then it follows that every belief, by anyone anywhere in space-time, is present in your and my unconscious mind too. In other words, the whole knowledge of all ages is in each one of us, recorded in each unconscious mind, and we each can access it from within, not without. These are the Akashic Records, at least part of this gigantic cosmic archive that covers the history of every atom right from the Big Bang up till this moment. Seers say these Records exist in the higher levels of the Astral World. Yet they're all within as well, and those who can reach there do become literally omniscient. (And yes, some did; this is just one of our many latent powers). Thanks Sir Rodan for all that you put on these boards. I sincerely appreciate it.

i've never heard of the Akashic Records before, you should make a thread so we can learn about them

Night Eyes wrote:i've never heard of the Akashic Records before, you should make a thread so we can learn about them

I'm not that familiar, either, Night Eyes, not really.  

Edgar Cayce used the term, maybe other before him, I'm not sure.

I think the Akashic Records are another name for all information that exists in the entire universe.

Some say it's the " Book of Life " from the bible and other religions.

Others say it's the informational binary code of the matrix.

As we attract more members, I'm sure we will have those that will have interest in the subject of the Akashic Records. The matrix, too, for that matter. ( might already be a sticky on that, I have to check )

Thanks rodan and lotus to explain this topic ..

It would be great if you guys elaborate it even more..
Thanks

bunny wrote:Thanks rodan and lotus to explain this topic ..

It would be great if you guys elaborate it even more..
Thanks

If you are referring to the topic of "Akashic records ", I'm at the point in my journey, I believe it exists. I don't have a handle on how to access it.

Sorry to get a bit off topic from " Power of Belief ", but, if someone does take interest in this subject, maybe in the future, we will have someone more fluent on the subject, and a separate thread to the subject.

Edgar Cayce, the one who actually coined this term, ( someone correct me if I'm wrong ) " Akashic Records ", would access information about his subjects during his trance, from these records.

During at least one of his " readings ", he mentioned anyone could do it, access the Akashic records. Anyone had the ability to do so. He may have even given some instructions on how to do it, I can't remember anymore. It was a few years ago when I read up on that.

Skeptics of Edgar Cayce, point out that he wasn't always accurate at his predictions, however, he got a lot of things right. When he first did these readings, some of his subjects made money from Cayce's stockmarket predictions. Cayce was accurate on that.

Cayce, after these type of sessions, would develop a headache, feel drained. When he found out there were these greedy types doing this, he hired a secretary to be present and document the sessions. I think there are over 14,000 documented readings by Edgar Cayce.

For now, if anyone is interested in learning about the Akashic records or Edgar Cayce, do a google search on it. There is a lot of information on it.

Anyone that can easily go into trance, might be interested in this.