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On Suffering and Avoiding (Spira)

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On Suffering and Avoiding (Spira)

Post by Lotus ♥ on Sun Jan 10, 2016 2:18 am

In response to, and in agreement with, recent posts from Armine and Freya, and others, I'd like to put in one place these related videos on the subject from Non-duality author and teacher Rupert Spira. I've selected only six clips in total, which cover almost all aspects of this important subject in my opinion. Here goes:



(Suffering is to the mind what pain is to the body)




(The two approaches of treatment)




(Anxiety and other forms of feeling "the wound of separation")


In addition:

Avoiding Uncomfortable Feelings through Activities
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0YHAOFw2Ec
Would the feeling overwhelm you when you allow it?

The Origin of the Sense of Boredom
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7O937dHmNxE
On desires initiated by a sense of lack, discomfort, etc.

How to Face Discomfort in the Body
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ej2-IfPlcS4
More on the first approach of non-resistance
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Re: On Suffering and Avoiding (Spira)

Post by Night Eyes on Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:19 am

Thanks Lotus i think i've watched a few of these already, but Rupert always helps to get me back on track so i look forward to watching them again I love you

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Re: On Suffering and Avoiding (Spira)

Post by lunareclipse on Wed Jan 13, 2016 5:57 pm

Thank you for sharing Lotus  I love you
Do you think that that all the fears and anxieties stem from that big anxiety and "feeling of lack" and emptiness we try to avoid, as he is saying, or are the other anxieties separate from that? 
If he says to stop what you are doing and embrace the anxiety, if you keep doing that eventually it would melt away and along with it the suffering and also other anxieties? 
For example, are social anxiety, OCD or say- me and Night have very intense driving phobia- connected to what he is talking about? 
I especially like the one where he explains how it starts reflecting as conflicts in your daily lives and how you create drama to avoid dealing with it and looking at it.

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Re: On Suffering and Avoiding (Spira)

Post by Lotus ♥ on Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:54 pm

Thanks for listening, Lunar. Smiley Yes, I believe so, even based on my scientific background not only my spiritual inclination. (It might be surprising that, in psychology, the topic of "emotions" or "feelings" in general is still very challenging and quite debatable, with more theories coming up everyday so variant they are contradictory sometimes. Some for instance strongly argue that we shake or shiver first, for example, and then because of this shivering we feel cold, not the other way around. Very Happy)

So there's really no brief answer to your question(s), but generally speaking I'd say yes, I totally agree with Spira here. One caution though: exactly as he said in the 4th clip above, what might be overwhelmed is the "fictitious self;" that is, your self as you currently know it. So if you're not on the path already, or in touch with some guidance, you may go through a "dark" moment or experience because of this allowing. On the long run, however, this dark moment will be your "Dark Night of the Soul" or "Abyss" experience, after which you'll "realize" or attain the experience of "enlightenment." It's usually such deep and intense crises that shake or even hit us awake at last. Therefore, even if you were overwhelmed, even if it were traumatic and you broke down altogether, that on the long run would probably be the best thing that ever happened in your life, because it'd finally open your eyes or at least take you to a new and entirely different horizon to explore. In this sense, the more devastating the crisis is, the better—needless to say provided that you won't lose your mind in the process. (But even if you lost your mind you'd still get there anyway. You just won't be aware of it in this lifetime. Remember, this whole self, this whole mind-body construct, is after all still illusory, totally fictitious; not any more real, literally, than a character in a dream.)


But this is not the case here really so don't worry; I'm just giving you a "complete" answer. When it comes to you or Night or most of our members here, your realization in my opinion won't come through this traditional Dark Night or Abyss route. You've been already exposed to the truth, and been relatively open to it, for long enough to indicate you'd be saved the-Cross-before-the-Crown scenario.

(Or do you really think we all met here just coincidentally, haphazardly and meaninglessly? Very Happy)
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Re: On Suffering and Avoiding (Spira)

Post by Night Eyes on Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:52 am

I found the last video interesting, where he said to ask yourself if you could live with these uncomfortable feelings forever.. a part of me was torn between well i have been living with them for years now you'd think i'd be desensitised and then another part of me just shrugged and then another part actually felt tired and was a bit 'do i have to'?

i have a few thoughts on Anxiety related to this, i think its easy once aware of the illusory self to observe this illusory self running riot and churning out totally illogical irrelevant thoughts and provoking these body responses that turn into an anxiety or panic attack

we're identifying with this false self for example my character Night Eyes, is viewed as a nervous and shy person, who likes to worry a lot and doesnt like to drive, when really we can be whatever we want to be, i could just as easily be Night Eyes the confident outgoing funny character (and she is a lot of the time)

but he's right in we should embrace this feeling and give it some love, regardless of how aware or awake we are, it does seem to dissolve it a lot quicker than fighting it and resisting it.


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Re: On Suffering and Avoiding (Spira)

Post by Lotus ♥ on Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:59 pm

Night Eyes wrote:..............

i have a few thoughts on Anxiety related to this, i think its easy once aware of the illusory self to observe this illusory self running riot and churning out totally illogical irrelevant thoughts and provoking these body responses that turn into an anxiety or panic attack

we're identifying with this false self for example my character Night Eyes, is viewed as a nervous and shy person, who likes to worry a lot and doesnt like to drive, when really we can be whatever we want to be, i could just as easily be Night Eyes the confident outgoing funny character (and she is a lot of the time)
That was very beautiful and so deep, Night. Smiley You even expressed it more simply and gracefully than most of us can. Thank you.


I found the last video interesting, where he said to ask yourself if you could live with these uncomfortable feelings forever.. a part of me was torn between well i have been living with them for years now you'd think i'd be desensitised and then another part of me just shrugged and then another part actually felt tired and was a bit 'do i have to'?
These "parts" of you negotiating and reflecting on it are all "thoughts" in the mind, which hosts the feeling or the phenomenon and "labels" it as a "problem" in the first place. It's a problem because we judge it as such. We define it as "a cause of suffering" and we therefore suffer. This is how the show goes on and on. Your mind both creates the problem and suggests the solution and in between keeps you suffering and seeking—or creates a desire and suggests its fulfillment and in between keeps you longing and seeking. So we end up constantly "seeking" something, and "seeking" not "finding" is what we really want. That's why when we "find" or "get" what we've been seeking, the mind hastens to create a new problem, or a new desire, only to keep the engine of seeking on forever.

So when you "befriend the feeling" as Spira suggests here, when you fully accept it and allow it, you literally ruin the whole strategy of the ego. You're no longer "seeking" anything, the feeling as a problem doesn't create "resistance" and is no longer driving you as planned, and the mind therefore "drops" it after awhile. It's simply not working. Very Happy

Anyway the point I'd like to highlight here is, all this show, all this drama, all these negotiating parts and thoughts inside, all the judging and suffering and seeking and even allowing, all of this is taking place only in the mind. Beyond the mind, where you really are, there is absolutely no problem. Everything is perfect—or just is. Therefore there is not even allowing of anything. You see? Smiley Both struggling and allowing; both resistance and non-resistance are still parts of the show here, and only in the mind. From Reality's point of view, this whole show doesn't even exist. Thus if Night Eyes kept suffering, so what? Of course she wouldn't, because the mind itself will eventually "fall into the heart" as they put it—eventually come back to unite with its source and origin, Infinite Consciousness. But even if she did, so what? This is not you. This is only Night Eyes; just another fictional character in the play, apparently here only for a minute or so. This persona, suffering or rejoicing, has absolutely nothing to do with YOU. This is how you reach "genuine" acceptance. It's acceptance without doing anything, or even intending to accept anything. It's acceptance by virtue of just being who you are.


(It might even be brighter than that: Another teacher (Steven Gray, aka Adyashanti) once explained that "nothing is wrong" really, but you just had the desire to "experience yourself thinking so." Very Happy "This Is It." This guy is genius by the way, and is older than he looks, so don't be deceived. His "Rest As Awareness" may also be relevant in this context.)

Thanks again, Swami Night Smiley and have a beautiful evening.
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Re: On Suffering and Avoiding (Spira)

Post by lunareclipse on Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:57 am

Thank you Lotus and Nighty for interesting insights Smiley 
I think I have definitely noticed in my life that when I give in and stop resisting, the troubles melt away. Say, having constant arguments with somebody- even if you know you are in the right and are tempted to explain your point, the more you explain, the more firm the opponent gets in their point and the bigger the conflict grows. 
We had this terrible female boss that was incredibly rude to everyone, so everyone used to fight with her. I was the only one that just didn't react, or if I did, I did it with a smile, joking with her- EVEN when she was cussing me out. In the end everyone became surprised how is it possible for her to treat everyone so horribly and then love me so much. She had tears in her eyes when I left. I think that serves as a perfect example of resistance. 

I think a part of me has always been somewhat scared of the "enlightenment" experience. Probably for one of the 2 reasons- first of all it makes it seem that once you reach the enlightenment, you are complete, you are done and most likely will die, cause your soul is done on Earth and with all the suffering. My mind is still stuck enough with buying into the illusion that even though I'm not scared of death per se, I still start thinking that I don't want my children to grow up without me (although yes, yes I know you're gonna say that's part of their part of the illusion too). 
Second, I feel like my ego is still ran by my desires so I hope for a better life, moving upwards and the idea of enlightenment seems to be like this Buddhist notion of "Just accept that life is suffering" so you won't suffer anymore. Which implies that nothing will change, your life will still be crap, you just grow used to it and learn to not be unhappy about it.  Neutral Ego is miserable, because ego doesn't want to just be happy with miserable life, ego wants a wealthier life with accomplished desires. A part of me still firmly believes that all the best things lie ahead, refusing to look around that most people just live their life in a routine until they get old, deteriorate and never really reach their bliss, never get rich or find that fairy tale once in a lifetime love story living happily ever after. 

Then again it reminds me of this video hehe 

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Re: On Suffering and Avoiding (Spira)

Post by Lotus ♥ on Sat Jan 16, 2016 9:35 pm

Very Happy
That was a great video, Lunar. Believe it or not I always wished to make or at least find something like this. Smiley If I made it, however, I'd show as long rope before this red part as there is after. But this one is okay too since we usually think we just "started to exist" in this lifetime. It thus speaks to the religious, duality-based mind as well, which's great. Thanks for sharing.


I think I have definitely noticed in my life that when I give in and stop resisting, the troubles melt away. Say, having constant arguments with somebody- even if you know you are in the right and are tempted to explain your point, the more you explain, the more firm the opponent gets in their point and the bigger the conflict grows.
Because the more you explain the more you prove the other is wrong or perhaps even guilty and therefore the more they need to defend their ego. That's why we often resort to "anger" in our arguments. Why anger? Because anger is the less painful emotion here. So we choose anger. We replace say guilt with anger, and our arguments therefore soon turn into quarrels or fights where we practically no longer "listen" but only yell at each other. "Truth" is not really what we're after in most arguments. For the ego, the first priority is rather "self-protection." (More in this interesting article).


We had this terrible female boss that was incredibly rude to everyone, so everyone used to fight with her. I was the only one that just didn't react, or if I did, I did it with a smile, joking with her- EVEN when she was cussing me out. In the end everyone became surprised how is it possible for her to treat everyone so horribly and then love me so much. She had tears in her eyes when I left. I think that serves as a perfect example of resistance.
That's why you're finally that kind of person we love, cherish and call "good-hearted." To many, unfortunately, you may look naïve, silly or weak, or too humble with a low self-image. But.. what to say? ..."Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth." Smiley


I think a part of me has always been somewhat scared of the "enlightenment" experience. Probably for one of the 2 reasons- first of all it makes it seem that once you reach the enlightenment, you are complete, you are done and most likely will die, cause your soul is done on Earth and with all the suffering. My mind is still stuck enough with buying into the illusion that even though I'm not scared of death per se, I still start thinking that I don't want my children to grow up without me (although yes, yes I know you're gonna say that's part of their part of the illusion too).
lol. No I wasn't gonna say that. I was gonna say, you never had any children at all, Lunar. Very Happy This is what you think only because you identify with "the body." Only as a body you think you're the daughter of so-and so, the wife of so-and-so, and the mother of so-and-so. That's how you end up saying "my" mother or "my" husband or "my" children. But, are you the body? In fact there is nothing in the entire world that you can put "my" next to and come up with any true statement. So regardless of how these little "bodies" arrived here, they are not "yours," and you never had or will ever have any children. That's what I was gonna say. Very Happy

(Although, figuratively speaking, it's equally valid and even true to say that "everyone" is your child.) Wink
 

Second, I feel like my ego is still ran by my desires so I hope for a better life, moving upwards and the idea of enlightenment seems to be like this Buddhist notion of "Just accept that life is suffering" so you won't suffer anymore. Which implies that nothing will change, your life will still be crap, you just grow used to it and learn to not be unhappy about it.    Ego is miserable, because ego doesn't want to just be happy with miserable life, ego wants a wealthier life with accomplished desires. A part of me still firmly believes that all the best things lie ahead, refusing to look around that most people just live their life in a routine until they get old, deteriorate and never really reach their bliss, never get rich or find that fairy tale once in a lifetime love story living happily ever after.
Well, generally your thoughts, concerns and fears, like most people's, express only a lot of misconception and even misinformation about this so-called "enlightenment" experience. This is even the reason it usually seems "harder" to get there than it really is, and that's why almost all teachers speak of "ignorance" as the cause of all this delusion. Once you get to "know" the truth, therefore, you can immediately see through the veils. In fact, whenever it feels hard or raises any fear, this only means we don't "know" enough yet. In this case we just ask more, reflect more or read more, in order to know more.  

What to "know," then? This can't be all put in one post or right now and here, of course, but let's just for example take only one major truth that differentiates between ignorance and awakening or enlightenment. This is simply the truth about "happiness."


Night Eyes and I, for example, have that dream of living someday in the English Countryside. Adi wants to settle in the States. You desire a wealthier life. And many just wish, for example, to meet their soulmate and together enjoy a loving, fulfilling relationship. Now, does "enlightenment" necessarily lead to, or primarily require, the renunciation of all such dreams and desires? Regardless of the subtle differences between the various schools, the answer is "No." This is not at all the point. Rather, the point, the core spiritual truth and teaching, is the answer to this simple question: where does happiness come from?

And the truth is this: If I was unhappy in Wales, for example, I'd still be unhappy in Devon or Dorset or Cornwall. If I was suffering in Burma or Warsaw or Seoul (apparently because of the poverty or the pollution or the political repression), I'd still be suffering even in say Los Angeles (because, again apparently, of an entirely different set of problems). Nor would I find my lasting peace and happiness in the most loving relationship, or with a bank account a thousand times bigger.

So you may pursue your dreams. But, for your own sake, you have to first realize that your happiness comes from and only from within you, never from the fulfillment of any of these dreams or desires. Your misery, similarly, comes from within never from without. You would therefore take your misery with you to the English Countryside, to Los Angeles, to all your relationships, and it would live on regardless of the number that shows in your bank statements.

What happens therefore is that we, having fulfilled our desire, only feel good for awhile, but soon begin to find a new problem and to nurse a new dream. It's all to both justify and cover the misery we're constantly holding inside. Worse still, some are so blind they insist on even "repeating" their exact same failure, like all those dying for their ex's on PLOA. But anyway we just keep blindly running in this vicious circle for the rest of our life, never aware that Happiness, what we are really after, is right now and here already, never missing but indeed fully present and ever shining in our hearts.


"Detachment" is a scary word to most people. "Renunciation" and "austerity" or "ascetism" are even scarier. However, when you know the truth and are aware where your happiness really comes from; when you reach this source within and do already feel happy and at peace wherever you are, you'll then naturally become less "attached" to your desires. You'll naturally "invest" less in these dreams. You won't "struggle" to detach—or like now feel like you're missing something really essential or important. You may not even notice that you're no longer attached. These desires will inevitably lose their dominance over you, together with their power and drive. They won't be viewed anymore as the missing cause of your happiness—nor was their absence, you'll realize, ever the cause of your misery. (And so far, please note, we're dealing only with the question of happiness; we didn't yet reveal the truth about the "illusory" self for example, about the totally "imaginary" world we seem to have here, or about "you" and your infinite and eternal being. You'll naturally detach, at least to some considerable degree, by virtue of seeing only what happiness really is, or even only where it comes from).

And now already happy and detached, if you still want more in your bank account, or to live in Devon, or in the united states of paradise, please go ahead. Very Happy Nothing in non-duality, I claim, or even in the apparently-more-nihilistic Buddhism is against such a desire. (Even your "actions" then, leading to the fulfillment of this desire, are "burnt" as the gurus call them—like "burnt seeds" that thus no longer produce any new fruits of "karma." So you still act in the world, but whatever you do you're liberated, no longer caught in the "wheel of karma" or subject to reincarnate because of these desires and actions).

* * *

Perhaps what remains is to only find out how to reach this promised source of happiness within, but this is a story for another night. My concern in this post was to only show how our misconceptions about so-called "enlightenment" or what we classify as "spirituality" in general may mislead us, only drive us away from the truth and needlessly waste a lot of our time and life.

Finally, on enlightenment, there are many videos that may help here needless to say, in both the Advaitist and the Buddhist flavors. But since this is about Spira I'd rather invite you to listen to this one where he literally explains that "Enlightenment is a fancy name for the most simple, the most ordinary, the most well-known experience there is." Very Happy

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Re: On Suffering and Avoiding (Spira)

Post by Night Eyes on Sun Jan 17, 2016 8:20 am

I worked out a long time ago happiness is from within, if you want true peace and happiness always turn inwards, seeking it outside is like temporarily distracting yourself, or avoiding this responsibility that we create our own happiness not others or objects.

however i wonder is there a difference in making your ego happy and following your bliss? if i refer back to the Cornwall dream, there's nothing there ego based, other than listening to the sea and the scenery would more than likely make me happy, i could have everything i want on an ego level here in Wales, i just feel some sort of pull to move there. Perhaps its so i can be your annoying neighbour Lotus Razz

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Re: On Suffering and Avoiding (Spira)

Post by Lotus ♥ on Sun Jan 17, 2016 5:08 pm

Hahaha.. on the contrary, rumor has it that I love this house in Cornwall and spend most of the year in Cornwall because of one of my neighbors there. Wink lol

Love your touches in this thread, Night. Smiley Thank you. "Avoiding this responsibility that we create our own happiness" isn't how I'd put it though. Why view it as a "responsibility," or that we should "create" anything? The sun isn't "responsible" to shine forth or "create" light. It is light. It is the sun and as such is naturally ever shining. By merely being the sun it is ceaselessly, effortlessly and inevitably shining. Similarly, you don't intentionally "create" happiness or are "responsible" to do so. You just are, and by being who you truly are you're not only happy but are indeed the essence of unspeakable tranquility, bliss, ecstasy and happiness.


The Root of All Evils
We really have no problem with the ego per se, Night. At least one of our greatest teachers (Sri Atmananda) used to defend the ego (and needless to say confuse the hell out of everyone. Very Happy). But under this title, The Root of All Evils, another prominent guru and author (Sri Swami Sivananda) summarized it all in one simple paragraph. It's not the ego; it's the ego's identification with the separate, temporary and finite body. This is the problem and the root of all evils. (That's actually why I told Lunar yesterday they were not really *her* children). Here's this insightful paragraph from Sivananda:

The erroneous imagination that you are the body is the root of all evils. Through wrong thinking, you identify yourself with the body. Attachment arises. You are attached to the body. This is ego-based attachment. Then, "mineness" arises. You identify yourself with your wife, children, house, etc. It is identification or attachment that brings about bondage, misery and pain. You never wept when millions of Germans died in the war. Why? Because, there was no identification and attachment. But, you weep profusely when your son dies, on account of attachment. The word 'My' produces wonderful influence in the mind. Note the difference in effects produced in the mind when you hear the two sentences: ‘Horse is dead’ and ‘My horse is dead.’
 
Very Happy
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Re: On Suffering and Avoiding (Spira)

Post by lunareclipse on Tue Jan 19, 2016 8:58 pm

That's why you're finally that kind of person we love, cherish and call "good-hearted." To many, unfortunately, you may look naïve, silly or weak, or too humble with a low self-image. But.. what to say? ..."Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth."

Thank you, yes we all grew up with the knowing that "The smart one gives in first" which actually implies that the more you resist the stronger the conflict persists. It's true that most people, especially guys at my work felt uncomfortable doing so, because it made them feel like they allow themselves to be patronized and it's unfair.

Also, great article and video, thank you for sharing! I have also noticed lately that if I ever do have arguments in my life, they tend to be projections of what I am secretly upset about regarding myself. It's almost as if I manifest an external voice accusing me of things I do not dare to accuse myself consciously of. So I end up getting very defensive and mad and justify it out loud really to myself. 


 No I wasn't gonna say that. I was gonna say, you never had any children at all, Lunar.  This is what you think only because you identify with "the body." Only as a body you think you're the daughter of so-and so, the wife of so-and-so, and the mother of so-and-so. That's how you end up saying "my" mother or "my" husband or "my" children. But, are you the body? In fact there is nothing in the entire world that you can put "my" next to and come up with any true statement. So regardless of how these little "bodies" arrived here, they are not "yours," and you never had or will ever have any children. That's what I was gonna say.



Well basically that's exactly what I expected you to say Very Happy however, I still feel that even though I might understand this logically, I am still attached to the reality with my emotions enough, so that if something did happen to my children, I would feel the full amount of pain or worry. For example, in Estonia a boy has been missing since October and it's big in the news, because his mom is so heartbroken and keeps pleading for everyone to keep looking. In her place, I would not feel any alleviation from the knowledge that it's an illusion and I never had a son at the first place. 

We were wondering though, would you say that we should accept the suffering and anxiety as it comes along and pops up day to day, or should we go out looking for things that we know cause anxiety? Since me Nighty and Freya have fear of driving, do you have any suggestions or thoughts about it or conquering it? 
Do you think that if we have anxieties such as driving that we know are present at the back of our mind, should we go out and force ourselves to face them and embrace it? Or just keep ignoring it as long as we don't really NEED to drive? Very Happy 

 
So you may pursue your dreams. But, for your own sake, you have to first realize that your happiness comes from and only from within you, never from the fulfillment of any of these dreams or desires. Your misery, similarly, comes from within never from without. You would therefore take your misery with you to the English Countryside, to Los Angeles, to all your relationships, and it would live on regardless of the number that shows in your bank statements.



Oh I understood that long ago, I even had a habit of creating a state of maximum love, bliss and high vibration for no reason at all. Usually I chose an object to create it first, or something like observing a sunrise. This feeling of happiness was probably bigger than the happiness I have achieved from any love relationship or financial gain. However, in times of gloom, it always seems like hard work and effort to achieve it. I know I can just choose to know I am light, I am happiness, I am love, but when my vibration is low, it just doesn't work  idk

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Re: On Suffering and Avoiding (Spira)

Post by Lotus ♥ on Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:54 pm

A mother's attachment to her children is probably the most beautiful attachment in the universe, Lunar. Smiley So this ain't my priority here at all. Very Happy Most people are rather attached or even addicted to their beliefs and habits, thoughts and emotions, memories and complexes, and finally to their ever-increasing "my's"—my name, my body, my car, my house, my job, my girl, etc. They're addicted to their most negative and limiting thoughts, beliefs, feelings and relationships, even while fully aware they're limiting and crippling. So don't bother; mothers attached to their children are not at all on my agenda.. not any time soon at least. Very Happy

I have also noticed lately that if I ever do have arguments in my life, they tend to be projections of what I am secretly upset about regarding myself. It's almost as if I manifest an external voice accusing me of things I do not dare to accuse myself consciously of. So I end up getting very defensive and mad and justify it out loud really to myself.
Very true. Because the whole thing is your projection and manifestation--and every dialogue is indeed a monologue. Now, for example, I'm not writing my own ideas to you; I'm only giving form and expression to your own thoughts, beliefs and feelings as they secretly pulsate or vibrate in the depths of my unconscious mind. Only on the conscious level there seem to be two people talking together. This is only the final product, and the grand illusion of separation. But if it's one and only one mind, how can there be any dialogue whatsoever, or even two separate entities in the first place?
 
Every act of love, therefore, is an act of self-love. Every conflict you have is indeed a conflict within not without. All you give you actually give to yourself, the peace you make you always make with yourself, and when you forgive someone it's you who are forgiven, released and redeemed.

We were wondering though, would you say that we should accept the suffering and anxiety as it comes along and pops up day to day, or should we go out looking for things that we know cause anxiety?
Either way, it seems, you missed the point. The point is not how to react to suffering; rather, it's the fact that you are not suffering in the first place. You cannot be suffering. What suffers is the mind, never the Soul.

Let's say there are two ladies: the merry Mary, always happy and joyful, and Sarah the sad, constantly in a state of depression. Now if you as a free, indefinite, nameless and even genderless Soul connected with the body-mind of Mary, you'd instantly feel happy. If with Sarah's, you'd instantly feel sad. So how do you end up feeling happy or sad? It's not anything in the world—you may not even know why Mary is happy or Sarah is sad. You "seemingly" feel happy, or sad, because and ONLY because you "identify" with a mind in a state of happiness, or of depression.

Erroneous "identification" with the mind, therefore, not the "experience" you call suffering, is the problem. It's the mind that we should detach from, not the experience. And it's by virtue of this detachment from the mind that "acceptance" immediately and spontaneously takes place. Acceptance is not a quality of the mind, or a skill that the mind may acquire or gradually develop. Acceptance, rather, is a quality of Awareness. So by removing the veil of the mind, your true nature—infinitely open, all-allowing and all-accepting—immediately shines forth.

That's why you ask...
…should we go out and force ourselves to face them and embrace it?
It so feels, like something you "force" or "face" or somehow "struggle" to embrace, because you want to do it through the mind, itself the very source of suffering. It's your mind that first separated you from the experience, then judged this experience and cried out, "I don't like this," then kept nagging you to resist, fight or at least run away. So when you say, "We're gonna accept it," your mind, quite understandably, goes, "wtf?" Very Happy That's why it feels like "forcing"—because you're literally forcing your mind to reverse its natural direction and accept what it rose mainly to resist.
 
Oh I understood that long ago, I even had a habit of creating a state of maximum love, bliss and high vibration for no reason at all. Usually I chose an object to create it first, or something like observing a sunrise. This feeling of happiness was probably bigger than the happiness I have achieved from any love relationship or financial gain. However, in times of gloom, it always seems like hard work and effort to achieve it.
But why the gloom, in the times of gloom? As Spira and others clarified, suffering always has a message for you and this message is always one and the same: "Attention! You're misidentifying yourself." And again, it feels like hard work or effort because you want to do it through the same mind that first created this gloom. You're asking your mind, the same mind already feeling sad, to feel instead happy. How come?

I know I can just choose to know I am light, I am happiness, I am love, but when my vibration is low, it just doesn't work
Because you only know it intellectually and haven't fully or experientially realized it yet. This "intellectual knowledge," I'm afraid, doesn't help or mean much really, because it's still your mind running the whole show. But it's okay my friend, so long as you're enjoying this show. I'm only explaining our situation or state of affairs here; by no means urging you to go any certain way. When it's time for you to go home, you'll go home.


Finally, anxiety…     
Since me Nighty and Freya have fear of driving, do you have any suggestions or thoughts about it or conquering it?
Do you think that if we have anxieties such as driving that we know are present at the back of our mind, should we go out and force ourselves to face them and embrace it? Or just keep ignoring it as long as we don't really NEED to drive? Very Happy
I believe I already answered this, Lunar, albeit briefly, and so did Spira in those videos. Actually the whole thread here is about such feelings. Very Happy So let's this time get back to the World of Illusion and try another answer from inside the Matrix. (Get down from the lofty peaks of the Himalaya to the noisy streets of Miami or Jacksonville, in other words. Very Happy) For anxiety, we all in all we have three main approaches or categories of treatment:

I
. Psychological:
various approaches, from the slowest psychoanalytic approach to the fastest yet least-recommended shock or full-exposure treatment (for example, someone with a phobia of cats: lock them up suddenly in a room full of cats. Very Happy Once upon a time, believe it or not, that was a clinical, scientific treatment—and "exposure" in principle still is anyway.)
II
. Magical:
again various approaches, from the mainly ritual and/or symbolic approach (write-and-burn, for example, or write-and-wash) to the mostly mental and therefore highest and often hardest to maintain approach (this includes all LOA techniques). In addition, NLP. (all NLP techniques/patterns are also magical and belong here in my humble opinion).
III
. Semi-Spiritual:
these include the Sedona Method, the Release technique, and generally all self-help approaches that promote "acceptance" or "non-resistance."


So it's up to you. You please pick up the category or approach (and then the technique) that appeals most to you or resonates best with your type of character, background, education, development, awareness, etc. That's why it's hard to give a personal, detailed answer to such questions on the web where we usually know very little if at all about the questioner. (I assume here, by the way, that this anxiety is mild, still within the scope of "normal." If it were instead an Anxiety Disorder or possibly a symptom of any form of mental illness, I believe you or whoever's reading this would have to stick then to the first psychological/ psychiatric approach only or just seek the help of a trained mental health professional).
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Re: On Suffering and Avoiding (Spira)

Post by lunareclipse on Sat Jan 23, 2016 9:26 pm

Thank you for the clear explanation for all my questions Smiley 


Let's say there are two ladies: the merry Mary, always happy and joyful, andSarah the sad, constantly in a state of depression. Now if you as a free, indefinite, nameless and even genderless Soul connected with the body-mind of Mary, you'd instantly feel happy. If with Sarah's, you'd instantly feel sad. So how do you end up feeling happy or sad? It's not anything in the world—you may not even know why Mary is happy or Sarah is sad. You "seemingly" feel happy, or sad, because and ONLY because you "identify" with a mind in a state of happiness, or of depression. 

Would you say then that soul has no emotions? Or that soul does have emotions, but just has the higher knowledge. It knows that this is a dream an illusion and it is eternal being so the fears of death or driving, worries about this life do not matter, because they are not real- so no reason to feel anxiety. 
Say I may have a dream that I am back in school and about to take an exam that I have not studied for. I feel anxiety, guilt and stress, but if I wake up, I immediately feel fine, because I know it was not real, so no need to feel experience more anxiety.

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Re: On Suffering and Avoiding (Spira)

Post by Lotus ♥ on Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:17 am

lunareclipse wrote:Would you say then that soul has no emotions?
Yes, the Soul in its original state doesn't have emotions in the human sense of the word. The Soul has absolutely no qualities or attributes or modifications whatsoever; in a state altogether beyond he mind to grasp. One of the basic definitions of the Soul, however, is Bliss Absolute. From this Bliss comes Love. From Love finally come all emotions. What we call "positive emotions" are just Love-based vibrations. And when Love is lacking, only seemingly of course, "negative emotions" instead arise.

(Gregg Braden presents a nice model here by the way. If in a hurry go directly to min. 16).

lunareclipse wrote:Or that soul .... just has the higher knowledge. It knows that this is a dream an illusion and it is eternal being so the fears of death or driving, worries about this life do not matter, because they are not real- so no reason to feel anxiety. 
Say I may have a dream that I am back in school and about to take an exam that I have not studied for. I feel anxiety, guilt and stress, but if I wake up, I immediately feel fine, because I know it was not real, so no need to feel experience more anxiety.
Perfect. This is exactly how the gurus explain it. Smiley

(Also this is by the way the reason most sages and saints especially in the east, although very compassionate, don't usually claim to fight for any grand cause or actively share in such invitations or campaigns that seemingly endeavor to raise the welfare of humanity. To those sages humans are already well, even perfect. They're fully aware that no one here is say poor really, or sick, or hungry. They're thus compassionate, but not troubled. Compassionate yet at peace. The common mind-driven or "mental compassion," on the other hand, knows no peace or rest, because mental compassion is itself a fruit of illusion. Many sympathize therefore, but they at best only temporarily soothe the pain, never remove it altogether or really give any lasting peace, for they don't have it themselves).

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Thanks to you Lunar; that was a short yet very nice journey—especially with those sweet little candles that our Night put along the way. (And for the record, I don't really answer any questions here. It's just a Word whose time has come and as such it just expressed itself—regardless of this curious process in which one seems to have raised questions and another seems to have offered answers). Very Happy
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Re: On Suffering and Avoiding (Spira)

Post by Night Eyes on Sun Jan 24, 2016 6:18 pm

always a pleasure Lotus I love you

Lunar and myself need to change the illusion where we both love love driving, its the best thing ever I love you

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Re: On Suffering and Avoiding (Spira)

Post by LittlemissSunshine on Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:37 pm

And u can NE! I had a huge fear of swimming until I decided to learn the chest crawl to get over it. In my experience exposure works when it comes to fear. It takes time and effort, but I went from hating water to love swimming. There is no limit to the mind
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